Java Ferns

[fry_lover]

Some quick stats

- heavy fish stock
- dose with Seachem Flourish once per week
- quite good plant growth many, many "simple" plants, Onion Plants, Dwarf Anubia, Vallis, Moss Balls, Java Fern
- no added co2
- sand substrate
- lights are x2 Aqua Glo and x1 Power Glo with reflectors and works out at about 1.5 WPG (US Gallon)
- Lights on for 14 hrs a day
- Nitrate does hover around the 50-60 mg/l region, get 20-25 mg/l from the tap
- Water changes are usually 30-40% every week

I know the lights are on quite long, always been that way, thats the routine and my plant growth has been good, so i have left it like that.

Pics are from my main tank and also my live-bearer fry growing tank, i transfered some of the plants and algae from main tank.

How comes i always get these brown patches on the Java Fern? Always been this way, whether they on bog wood, or still have the led weight attached to them. I've tried not burying the roots in the substrate as advised on Google.

Most of the my other plants are quite lush, despite no co2

I am tempted to take out all my Java Fern, although i know its still growing, i get lots of "daughters" off it, if thats the right word, lots of "mini" java ferns.

Am i doing something wrong here? Do i need to adjust some of the stats above?

Is 14 hrs a day light doing this to them? As all my other plants are thriving. In a way the Java Fern is thriving too, but the brown patches are annoying me!!!

Please help!!!!

 

[fry_lover]

Is temperature an issue, i heard it can be? The tank is always at 80F

I mean i could drop it to 76-77, but would that really make any difference?

 

[frozenbarb]

I say it would a light and nutrients problem, Such as Nitrate

 

[SuperColey1]

1.5WPG of what? Are they T5 tubes?

I can't see why you are doing such large water changes on a non CO2 tank with off the shelf ferts?

Java Fern is a funny one really. This is a Steven Seagal plant (hard to kill) Even when it is looking bad it fights on and on.

There is a line of thinking currently that when this plant suffers it grows the babies to ensure its survival. The 'babies' usually appear on ragged leaves, so we snip these ragged leaves off as they 'steal' nutrient from the good leaves.

As a general rule with all plants you should remove any deteriating floiage as soon as you see it as it will leach ammonia into the water and also get algaefied.

Therefore I would trim off all the ragged leaves including the ones with the 'babies' even if means there is only 1 left. The plant will reward you with new growth over time and if you keep up the snipping of bad leaves you should end up with a beautiful lush specimen.

With regard to your tank.
Unless it is a Nano then 1.5WPG of T8 is on the borderline of requiring pressurised CO2 as a necessity. If they are T6/T5/PC then pressurised CO2 is a definate must. Due to the inadequacies of the WPG rule (calculated on T12 tubes) you should assume that the further away you get from T12 that you have an equivalent of more than the WPG rule.
1W = 1W in reality but for our calculations you should assume that 1W T5 could be as much as 2W on the WPG rule.

14 hours is way too long a photoperiod. Plants need light but will not continue to grow if you have them on for longer. They will grow the same BUT once they have filled their boots they will stop and algae will utilise the remaining photoperiod.
In a high light tank some plants will start to withdraw their leaves after 4-5 hours!!!
Therefore you should reduce your photoperiod to between 8 and 12 hours (12 being the absoloute maximum) I use a 10 hour photoperiod with 1.5WPG of HO T5.

I am wondering why if your tap water has 25-30ppm nitrate that the tank contains 50-60? This would say to me that the plants are not using them up and therefore there must be a limiting factor somewhere that is holding them back!

Finally looking at your tank some of the leaves show signs of 'munching'. Its not common for fish to eat java fern due to its strongly structured leaves but it does look like they are being eaten due to the clean 'cut' at their tips rather than a ragges decaying edge.

Andy

 

[fry_lover]

Brilliant Andy

Thanks for the taking the time to give such a detailed reply, with the exception of the comment about the water changes i will follow your advice totally, sounds like good advice to me.

By the way Andy/anyone, i do have loads of healthy looking baby java ferns about, what is the eaiest way to grow these on without having them just floating about the tank? I guess i should try and tie them to some bog-wood? Is there any other simple methods? I dont think they like to be rooted in substrate do they?

To answer some of your points,

Yes, it's 1.5 WPG of T-8's with reflectors. I wasn't aware 1.5WPG was pushing the limit in terms of needing co2. I thought the WPG would need to be higher than 1.5WPG where co2 was a neccessity.

In my eyes, 30-40% water change weekly is just normal good fish-keeping practice. I do an absolute minimum of 30% weekly with all tanks and even go up to 50% on my Malawi tank. Over the months, the results speak for themselves (fish wise).

Correctly treated tap-water with good water changes is a great preventative medicine in fish-keeping.

I will certainly cut the lighting down, i think i have been getting away with it for a while now, but with the algae and Java Fern issues, perhaps it's catching up with me now, i have been a bit lazy, turning the lights on when i leave for work and off when i go to bed, need to add some discipline to the routine.

I think i will go to 10-11 hrs daily now.

In terms of the tap nitrate being 20-25 and tank reading 50-60 Andy, i think it's due to the tank needing a clean up in terms of any rotting leaves etc. I am having a re-scape and moving the tank on to a different stand in next few weeks. I am going to take this opportunity to do some pruning and a clean up of the substrate. I will also remove the internal Juwel filter (having trouble accessing it as its not designed to go with this tank and therefore maintenance is a bit slack) and be adding another small external. I also intend to increase the maintenance of the filters.

I am hoping the above will help reduce my nitrates.

In the past with this tank (6-9 months ago) i was actually getting Nitrate readings of about 10ppm in the tank with 25ppm out of tap.

 

[newfyman]

I had the same problem with my Java some years ago (very high nitrate levels from tap) used RO to get levels down and the plants recovered.

 

[SuperColey1]

By the way Andy/anyone, i do have loads of healthy looking baby java ferns about, what is the eaiest way to grow these on without having them just floating about the tank? I guess i should try and tie them to some bog-wood? Is there any other simple methods? I dont think they like to be rooted in substrate do they?

Just anchor them by elastic bands, cotton or fishing line to rock or wood as you did the mother plant. However healthy Java Ferns tend to get very bushy and never seem to provide 'plantlets'

Yes, it's 1.5 WPG of T-8's with reflectors. I wasn't aware 1.5WPG was pushing the limit in terms of needing co2. I thought the WPG would need to be higher than 1.5WPG where co2 was a neccessity.

1.5WPG of T8 should be OK with no CO2. T5s and especially HO T5s push the limit as they are so thin they don't block as much light from the reflector and pack more W per inch so they tend to be non applicable to the WPG rule

In my eyes, 30-40% water change weekly is just normal good fish-keeping practice. I do an absolute minimum of 30% weekly with all tanks and even go up to 50% on my Malawi tank. Over the months, the results speak for themselves (fish wise).
Correctly treated tap-water with good water changes is a great preventative medicine in fish-keeping.

I understand where you are coming from as you keep Cichlids. I have a couple of bolivian Rams which are a lot more hardy than most Cichlids and they seem unaffected by the lack of water changes. In general non CO2 tanks use the lack of water changes to maintain the low level of CO2 that they have naturally

I will certainly cut the lighting down, i think i have been getting away with it for a while now, but with the algae and Java Fern issues, perhaps it's catching up with me now, i have been a bit lazy, turning the lights on when i leave for work and off when i go to bed, need to add some discipline to the routine.
I think i will go to 10-11 hrs daily now.

Timers are cheap £3ish from Wilkinson/Boyes. They also mean you don't have to remember to turn on/off

In terms of the tap nitrate being 20-25 and tank reading 50-60 Andy, i think it's due to the tank needing a clean up in terms of any rotting leaves etc. I am having a re-scape and moving the tank on to a different stand in next few weeks. I am going to take this opportunity to do some pruning and a clean up of the substrate. I will also remove the internal Juwel filter (having trouble accessing it as its not designed to go with this tank and therefore maintenance is a bit slack) and be adding another small external. I also intend to increase the maintenance of the filters.
I am hoping the above will help reduce my nitrates.

May be rotting leaves but not too confident in rotting leaves providing an extra 35ppm nitrate alongside heavy water changes!!!

In the past with this tank (6-9 months ago) i was actually getting Nitrate readings of about 10ppm in the tank with 25ppm out of tap.

this sounds better as in the plants were using the nitrate whereas now they may not be due to a limiting factor somewhere!!

Good Luck

I had the same problem with my Java some years ago (very high nitrate levels from tap) used RO to get levels down and the plants recovered.

High Nitrates will not harm plants so I don't think it was reducing the nitrates that caused the plants to grow better. I assume that if you went to RO water you also went to manually dosing ferts? This would then be the reason the plants recovered.

Andy

 

[SuperColey1]

FryLover - Check out this thread. Tom Barr posts at the end with the answers you are after for your tank.

http/www.fishforums.net/content/Plants-a...sing-Question-/

Andy

 

[fry_lover]

FryLover - Check out this thread. Tom Barr posts at the end with the answers you are after for your tank.

[URL="http/www.fishforums.net/content/Plants-a...sing-Question-/"]http/www.fishforums.net/content/Plants-a...sing-Question-/[/URL]

Andy

Yes, interesting reading although slightly annoying if you dont know what "EI" is? What is EI mate?

Thanks for the link

 

[fry_lover]

ok, found out it means "estimative index"

here's a part of the pinned thread on it, i found interesting

Estimative Index is highly dependant on a good level of CO2 which must be maintained at a stable 30ppm through the whole of the photo period. More than 90% of all algae problems on planted tank forums are because of poor CO2 levels.

So if i am not adding co2, does the EI not apply to my tank? This whole world of plant growth is fascinating, am i likely to have co2 levels approaching 30ppm in my highly stocked tank, or no where near 30ppm?

I could get a test kit, but i worry about testing for anything other than ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH i am obsessive enough and spend enough on my hobby as it is LOL

 

[SuperColey1]

This is the bit for you:

Generally, for a non CO2 method, 1.5 w/gal is good.
If you use soil or ADA aqua soil, then you really do not need much if any ferts.
The system has it in the sediment and it also slowly leaches into the water column.

Plants can get the nutrients from both places and do.

If replacing the sediment is too much, you might consider dosing the water column lightly.
Say 1x a week or 1x every 2 weeks with KNO3/KH2PO4. About 1/2 the suggested amount per dose of EI(which suggests dosing 3x a week, take one of those doses, cut in 1/2).
No water changes.

Add lots of easy to grow plants, a few floating plants like water sprite etc.

So that's 2 ways to do a non CO2 method and add ferts.

EI is an excess nutrient dosing that is used for higher light tanks to ensure plants never run out of nutrient. inevitably high light means CO2 injection and at high light pressurised is much better.

What I meant was if you drop to 1.5WPG you can do the non CO2 methods but notice Tom is suggesting no water changes!!. Tom does know his cichlids too. one is large enough for him to swim in (12ft x 4ft x 4ft)!! Take a look here is a link to the tank setup he did:

http/www.fishforums.net/content/forum/15...-Behemoth-Tank/

Andy

 

[fry_lover]

that's one heck of a thread Andy.

I noticed about the no-water change advice, the thing is, this tank is primarily for the fish, so i dont really want to mess about with my water change routine as i am having such a good success with the fish.

What is the benefits to the plants of no water changes? I am curious to know why no-water changes brings any particular benefits or advantages, but i will read up some more, thanks

I'm already on 1.5wpg which seems to be the correct level for my set-up then,

thanks again

 

[SuperColey1]

The no water changes means that what small amount of CO2 is naturally in the water from fish breath and gaseous exchange at the water surface remains in the tank and therefore keeps the CO2 stable.

Wether you inject CO2 or not the level must remain stable or plants have to keep adjusting and therefore algae adaps before the plants and takes hold.

The plants should consume all this CO2 and actually create extra oxygen (although you wont be getting much 'pearling with no CO2)

If you dont make changes to your tank and there is no means for contaminants to arrive (i.e. no new fish etc) then ther should be no worry about fish health. I normally do 10% a week with CO2 but sometimes when I am lazy I don't bother for a month or so.

At the end of the day your filter should be up to the job of cleaning the water and if not you need a new one. Water changes can still be performed if there is a need but you would be surprised how clear your water will stay.

Andy