It Was All Going So Well

[Akasha72]

Hi again ... okay so my natural tap supply in around 7.6 but it falls to around 6.8 - 7 as my Gh and Kh are non-existant. I've currently got aquarium sand in my tank (unipac) but I first discovered a large fall in Ph when I had a tank that had play sand ... that fell to 6 and stayed at 6 - but to be fair I was using API masterkit then and it doesn't read below 6. I'm now using JBL's kit and the Ph is difficult to read - the nearest is 5.5 but it's probably between 5.5 and 6. 
When setting up this new tank I was hoping to get the Ph up to nearer neutral which was why I payed extra for proper aquarium sand ... the result has been an even lower Ph.
I did an experiment with 3 clean glasses, one with plain water, one with aquarium gravel and one with sand. The plain glass didn't move much, the gravel fell to 6.6 - 6.8 within 3 days and then remained stable and the sand dropped to 6 after 4 days. It would suggest the sand is playing a part in my low Ph but obviously there's organics playing a part too. I have some crushed coral in my filter but it's not helping much. 
 
After much research I decided the only way to keep fish in this water was to keep the species suited to low Ph ... I'm 80% certain that my curviceps cichlids were wild caught as in this area - they are a real rarity and when in full breeding mode they were utterly vicious. Now they are old and have stopped breeding ... thankfully. It got quite stressful ... especially as I had rams too ... WW3 and 4 broke out every 6-8 weeks!
If you research SA cichlids and tetra's (and cories too) you'll find their Ph range is far reaching and they can be kept in a Ph this low happily. I've just been reading this month's PF and there's an article in there about Ancistrus cats - I have 2 males - they will tolerate a Ph as low as 5 ... possibly even lower.
 
I combat the Ph difference in tap and tank by keeping water changes small and more frequent - that way they don't get a Ph shock and within a few hours the fresh water has fallen back down anyway. 
I've been a serious fish keeper around 4 years now. I discovered this forum very early on and learned most of what I know here. In the last 4 years I've joined and been a contributing member to various fish keeping forums .... my reason for my defensiveness to you (thank you for accepting my apology by-the-way) is because I've had to explain this so many times now and it's led to so many heated discussions that I've lost count of the times I've lost my temper - something I try very hard not to do but some people have just refused to listen to what I am trying to say. 
 
My oldest cories (allowing for growing up to saleable size) are probably over 5 years old. I've had curviceps (in a Ph this low) for over 3 years. My harlequins are down to 4 as they are now dying of old age - same with my Kerri tetra's. The Kerri tetra's have been replaced with the Palmeri tetra and they are healthy and breeding regularily. 
 
The reason for this topic was I had some long term health problems in my tank about 18 months ago... the Kerri tetra's developed some strange worm like things in their fins ... Nobody knew what they were, I even sent photographs via my lfs to the lab that makes the medications to find out what they were but even they were stumped as to what these 'worms' were. It was then that I discovered that my tap water contains extreemly high levels of phosphate (reading at 1.8) The outcome was that the phosphate levels were making my fish ill. Once I got my phosphate down to a safer level the fish all mysteriously recovered. It has nothing to do with the Ph.
When I saw the neon looking pale in colour my first reaction was "Oh no, not again" ... a few seconds later and I'm sat in front of a keyboard .... give it a few more minutes and I get a closer look at the tetra and I realise it looks more like a fight wound than anything else - it's fine today ... 2 salt baths and it's recovered!
 
As a long term fish keeper I'm well aware of issues with water parameters and well versed in discussions of optimum water conditions to keep fish in but I'm also well aware that none of us have perfect water conditions and we have to work with what we have. I wouldn't dream of putting a Rift Lake cichlid in my water ... I wouldn't consider adding Gourami's ... I used to keep guppies and I know they don't do well in my water. What does do well is what I have and so that is what I'll continue to keep

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

Since you pulled the experience card, I will tell you a little about my experience. I had my 2nd tank for over 4 years. I've worked in a few LFSs for probably a total of 12 years or so. I was in charge of one of, if not, the largest live fish departments in the state with over 700 tanks on four separate systems and including isolation tanks. That was a long time ago but even back then I was no expert. Things have changed a lot since then. I have access to the internet now for one. From what I've seen, things have swung from minimal maintenance to frequent water changes and testing. It's like people are treating their freshwater tanks like we used to treat saltwater ones. It goes against the vast majority of my experience because I found that people who were too cautious about their low maintenance set-ups had the least success.
 
So, even though you determined that the sand was causing a big drop, you decided to keep using it? That doesn't make sense, especially if you were going for neutral. It was worse than you had before? The sand should be neutral. There was something else at play in your tests. You mentioned "organics". That would make your test results flawed and you never really tracked down the cause of the low pH.
 
I'm sure if the curviceps were wild, they would have been sold to you as such. They are not difficult to breed. Rarity is sometimes a result of low demand. They were never a real popular fish. I like them, though.
 
You also did not mention the pH of the water that the fish were in when you got them. If the place is local, do they have the same pH problems that you do?

 

[Akasha72]

Hi again ... I have 4 local fish stores all within a 20 miles radius. My favourite one and the one that I use the most is a small independent store run by fellow fish keepers ... it is about 2 miles away from my home but they don't use tap water in their tanks, they use RO - possibly because they've come to realise our tap water isn't so great. They have tanks on each side of the room - one side soft water loving fish the other side hard water loving fish and they keep the tanks.
 
I'm afraid I'm struggling to understand what you are trying to get at here though. Why does it matter what the water they've been in at the lfs matter? They've come from a fish farm to an lfs and then into someone's home where they stay until they die of old age... all three of those are going to have different water. I fail to see what the problem is.
 
I'm starting to feel now that you wish to pick an arguement over this and that's not something I'm going to get into. I've just left one forum due to constant bickering and bullying. I'm not starting it here.
 
Please can a moderater close this thread and I'll stick to helping newbies and say no more about my tank or fish.
 
Many thanks 

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

You apparently are a little sensitive about this issue. I merely shared my experience and had some questions about your methods as they go against what I know. There is a big difference between an intelligent discussion and an argument. Apparently you do not know that.
 
Good luck with your fish, I hope they do well despite your resistance to an alternative way of thinking. 

 

[DrRob]

Please can a moderater close this thread and I'll stick to helping newbies and say no more about my tank or fish.
 
Many thanks 

 
I'd actually rather not, given a chance Akasha. I for one like to hear about your tank, and would love to hear updates of how they're doing.
 
With regards to the argument, you're both bringing experience of different ways of doing the same thing. Some aim for stability and the conditions that a fish is raised in, some aim for the original biological needs of the fish. Both options have their merits, challenges and methods. I personally tend to aim towards the latter approach, but that's largely because I started to keep fish with water coming out of the tap that wasn't chemically too far off what the Amazonian fish like in nature, and I never really stopped. We can get into the pro's and con's of this at length, it would be a good thing to discuss, but this is a thread exploring a bullying situation in a tank, not the choice of chemistry, if either of you would like then we can start a discussion elsewhere about the pro's and con's of both methods, but lets leave this thread for the original subject.
 
Back to the original question, how large are the angels Akasha, and the Black Neons? Angels being cichlids there'll always be variation, they're one of the more predictable of the group, but like any of them they can have their share of fish that turn nasty, and I would never put a one off attack past them. I suspect with fully grown black neons though that it's more likely in shoal aggression, as a full sized angel would likely leave a more obvious mark.
 
I'm inclined to agree with Alasse's comment on them growing up together as well, apart from one consideration, which is that fully grown tetras (of the bigger variety, neons are still too small) are generally fine with angels, but if you add new young cardinals or black neons, who won't be fully grown, in with adult angels, then don't be surprised if they think that you're feeding them.

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

Actually, I would enjoy that discussion.

 

[Akasha72]

Hi Rob, my angels are now I'd say about the size of a small tea cup - possibly 5cm across. They seem to have stopped growing - I've not seen much growth recently but it may be that the growth has slowed to a point where it's not so noticable. I've had, I think, 4 spawns from them - all a failure but they are still young and so are getting used to this parenting thing. The neons are large - most are female and so are quite chunky. They're definitely too big to fit in the angels mouth. Once they die out I won't be getting any more. The palmeri tetra's I got recently are smaller than the neons but the angels are leaving them alone too. Once they get to full size they will be fine though. I have already had the talk with my regular lfs and they've already said they'll take the neons in if I see any worrying behaviour. They think the same as me though, they've grown up together - the neons were there first - and so the angels are likely to just see them as 'family' and not food. They knew before they sold me the Palmeri's that they were too small for my tank and so reserved the number I wanted and fed them up for me over xmas and new year until too large to fit in the angels mouth.
 
Regarding my water ... I tired of arguing over it. I don't want to argue over it. My fish are happy and healthy (until that damn phosphate rears it's head again. I need to keep a closer eye on it) I did my research before getting all my current stock and they are fine in my soft, acidic, low Ph water. I've now got the tank looking nice. I don't want to start ripping everything out to replace the substrate ... why the hell should I just because a handful of other fish keepers say I should. Go do what you like with your own tank and leave mine alone. I refuse to be bullied and will stick up for myself if I feel that is what is happening.
 
 
Regarding the bullying. I suspect the Palmeri tetra's. They are known to be a little aggressive. I found that out just after I got the first 5 and that was why I waited before adding to their numbers. I wanted to see how aggressive they were. I've been keeping cichlids for over 3 years. I'm used to aggression. I know it generally sorts itself if you just leave them to it. Sometimes there are casualties - like this neon - sometimes that casualty goes as far as losing a fish but that is rare. 
 
In all honesty though. I wish I'd kept my mouth shut and not posted here about the neon. I really can't deal with  arguments at the moment. I have more than enough stress in my private life without coming online and dealing with it there too.
 
I'm bowing out though now. Thanks

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

I feel like I am being unfairly blamed for other people's actions here. My comments in no way could be considered bullying. In fact, because of one of your earlier comments I tried to keep a mellow tone to my comments. You are the one calling it an argument. Just because you ran into some supposed internet bullies doesn't mean that I am one, too. Heck, even the article that you linked me too, contradicted your thinking on the subject. It's not my problem and I was only trying to inform, not criticize. You obviously got the wrong message. For that I apologize, but again, my comments here, in no way, could be considered bullying or arguing and I don't appreciate even the slightest insinuation that I was or there was any of that going on here.
 
I would appreciate it, if you would retract your comments about that in regards to this thread.

 

[Byron]

I hope this thread is still active.
 
To the initial issue of which fish might be showing aggression, I would suggest it could be the angelfish or the Emperor Tetra.  Taking the latter first, Nematobrycon palmeri, I had a group of these in with a group of their close cousin N. lacortei; the latter is extremely rare, and I was on the lookout for this species for 15 years before any turned up locally, imported direct from SA.  Initially I put them in my 70g (very quiet SA fish) but that didn't last long as the N. lacortei showed themselves to be incredibly active so they went into the 5-foot 115g with the N. palmeri and close to 100 other characins and corys.  After a few weeks, I discovered that all the upper fish remained on the right side of the tank, in about a 1.5 foot space.  The reason were three N. lacortei males that decided they "owned" the rest of the tank.  Any fish attempting to swim out of the right side was immediately attacked by one of the N. lacortei and driven back.  I wasn't about to stand for this, so the N. lacortei and N. palmeri (the males were easily distinguishable, but not the females) were moved into my 90g.  Within days they began the same bullying.  I gave them away (yes, I told the aquarist all of this, so she knew what she was getting).
 
Anyway, both species are on the active and bullying side, and neither should be housed with sedate fish like angels.  This may (or may not) be the source of the issue, but Akasha I would not leave the N. palmeri in with your angels regardless.  As for the angelfish being the culprit, this is quite possible too.  This is not a peaceful fish.  A rather good article in the January (I think) issue of PFK went into this, and the author noted that as they mature, angelfish have a decided tendency to become aggressive to other fish, notwithstanding that they have been together peacefully from the first.
 
Here's a suggestion I find works.  Whenever one is faced with probable aggression as here, it is useful to find a time preferably near the start of the day (regarding the fish's behaviours here) to pull up a chair a couple feet from the tank and sit absolutely motionless for up to an hour.  Once the fish forget you are there, they will tend to exhibit behaviours you might not otherwise observe.  It is usually easy to spot the culprit.  I've done this a couple times with success.  And when I say motionless, I mean just that; get comfy and relaxed, and do not move a finger--fish can see very well.
 
I am not going to get into the water parameter issue here, but I would like to pursue this elsewhere, with both Akasha and RobRocks, and anyone else of course, as I have some personal observations and also questions.  And while we're touting up experience, I have more than 25 years in this hobby, and I have carried out very extensive research during the past seven on fish species and habitats.  I contribute to the SF knowledge base, among others.  Perhaps I could start a new thread and you will join in, please?  It is a complex subject, and much is in a gray area.
 
Byron.