It Was All Going So Well

[Akasha72]

I was asked today by my lfs how everything was going ... "great I said, all the fish are well finally" ... I spoke too soon.
 
My lights came on about an hour ago and one of my black neon tetra's doesn't look so good. It's silver lateral line is faded and it's body looks like there's some kind of slime coat problem. There's kind of a white patches ... hard to describe ... I'll try getting a good photograph
 
My general feeling is to try giving it an epsom salt bath first and then to add some Protozin if that doesn't cure it but am I missing something.
 
 
Give me a shout if you want tank stats etc ... there shouldn't be anything going on ammonia wise etc as it's a well established tank with good filtration

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Be careful- Epsom rapidly raises the TDS in a tank and this may cause more harm than good. Epsom is magnesium sulfate. Salt is sodium chloride. This will also raise TDS but is usually a better med than Epsom which is typically only tried on constipated fish and the jury is still out as to whether or not it helps.
 
I use Epsom as part of a mix to raise TDS in simulating dry season for fish.

 

[Akasha72]

update ...
 
On closer inspection it looks like it might have been involved in a fight. There's some damage to it's scales on one side ... looks like it's been nipped and all the neons are hiding in a corner .... I might possibly have a bully in my tank

I've not added the epsom salt to the tank ... my cories would hate that! I've added some tank water to a pot and mixed in just a small pinch of epsom salt and added the fish. I'll leave it in there for about 5 mins and then re-add it to the tank and pour the water away.
 
I've had good  results with waterlife products in the past but I've not got any Protozin in at the moment and all the shops are closed now. The only thing I have in stock is Octozin which I know to be a good all rounder. I am reluctant to add anything to the tank though for one fish 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You are likely correct about a bully. Tetras school as a defense. However, when they become really terrified, they hide.
 
I tend not to treat an injury with anything unless there are complications. At that point I will use a med.

 

[Akasha72]

well I did see a female palmeri tetra being pursued through the plants by a couple of males this afternoon so perhaps the neons got in their way and an altercation came about. Either way I bathed the neon in the salt and netted it back to the tank ... it's coloured back up a bit now but they are all still hiding in a corner as a group.
 
The other thing could be my angelfish ... they've grown up with the neons and up until now they've just ignored them ... I so hope this isn't the angels. The 'poorly' neon is far too big to be angelfish food though. All I can do now is keep an eye on things I guess. If I see any more fish with similar symptoms I'll get some Protozin in and treat them 

 

[Alasse]

The angels grew up with the tetras thing is a myth. You may get the odd angels that wont eventually eat them, but i have found that if it fits in thier mouth at some stage they will eat them or at least try

 

[Akasha72]

well I had a count up of neons and they all seem to be there so it's not that they're becoming angelfish food. I think there was some kind of altercation and it was probably one of my palmeri tetra's getting wound up and took it out on a neon.
 
Not seen the fish yet but I'm about to go and check it out and see how it's looking this morning. If it's still looking sore on it's side I'll give it another salt bath tonight

 

[Akasha72]

just done a full water test and there's nothing there really
 
Ph 5.5
Ammonia zero
Nitrite zero
Nitrate 40 (or there about's)
 
The only thing that stands out is my Phosphate is way too high again so I need to change the remover. When I first found the Phosphate problems the fish all had skin problems so that could be a reason for the 'poorly' neon too. I'll sort it today

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

Isn't that pH more than a bit low?

 

[Akasha72]

it would be for some fish but for my Amazonian fish who all love my soft acidic water it's fine but thank you for your concern

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

They obviously are not doing well and that is a possible cause. 

 

[Akasha72]

not doing well? Because one fish has been involved in a fight and has some damaged ... obviously you know nothing about my stock

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

Why so demeaning?
 
I'm only going by what you describe here. I'm new here. How would I know your stock?
 
All of your neons are stressed. You covered aggression as being a possibility. You pH is clearly low. Well below the recommended range. I pointed it out, but you seem to be in denial about it.
 
Good luck with your stock.

 

[Akasha72]

sorry, we've set off on a bad footing - please accept my apologies if I offended.
 
All my stock are amazonian fish ... South American cichlids and tetra's. The area where they come from has a Ph range far lower than 5.5 (often as low as 4) I stocked my tank with fish that love soft, acidic water with a low Ph on purpose. I knew a lot of fish wouldn't cope in the water I have but SA cichlids love my kind of water.
I've been told so many times that my fish are being damaged by my water. If you read up on the water where SA cichlids come from and tetra's too a Ph of 5 and below is normal. 
 
Have a read of this if your interested http/www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3604

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

Okay, apology accepted. Let's reset.
 
I knew your response was going to be that you were trying to recreate wild conditions. Unless you are getting wild caught fish from that area, you might want to rethink that. Now, if the pH of the water you are using for the tank is very low to start with and you are not doing anything to reduce the pH, I totally agree with your approach.
 
I don't know where you are from but around here, I'm pretty sure that the availability of wild caught stock is fairly limited. Therefore, we have to match the captive bred chemistry as the fish are probably at least a couple generations deep in captive breeding, not wild chemistry. Since that information may not be readily available, our first source would be where we get the fish from. Even the author of the article you linked me to said, "I asked the supplier what water they kept their fish in and matched it with pH 7..."
 
I also don't know how long your fish have been kept at that pH. If you have had them in that pH for quite a while, then you are probably good with you current stock but any fish added from a source that is running neutral, or just below neutral for low pH liking fish, probably won't do well with such a large and sudden drop. I've seen the effects that lower than recommended pH can have on fish. It's not pretty and unless, caught early, the fish do not fully recover, if they survive.
 
To sum it up, you have to account for the source of the fish, unless they are wild caught from the area that can reach those low levels, you should try to match the conditions that the fish are coming from rather than wild conditions.

Oops, sorry forgot to mention this quote also:
"Replicating the very soft and acidic water would be impractical and unnecessary, as the fish and plants I am using are used to more mineral-rich conditions."
 
Which goes along with what I said about the water that you are using for the tank. If you have to mess with the water to achieve with those conditions, you taking a big risk because when those types of measures fail, it can be quite catastrophic.