Is This Hole In The Head?

[mark4hay]

is this hole in the head my other bolivian ram only has a tiny white mark on its head but this one is worse



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[fishguy2727]

I can't tell from the picture. Does it look like a scrape, a narrow deep pit (possibly with some white discharge), wide shallow pits, or what?

 

[mark4hay]

I can't tell from the picture. Does it look like a scrape, a narrow deep pit (possibly with some white discharge), wide shallow pits, or what?

it looks more like a scrape to me my other bolivian ram that is quite a bit bigger has a tiny patch of it too and so does my firemouth it doesnt look like a pit from what i can tell.

 

[snowflake311]

This is HITh

See it is when there are real holes in the head. It is normally the erosion of the sensory pits due to poor living conditions.
Your photo is hard to tell. But the fish looks kind of skinny it could be just the photo.

 

[fishguy2727]

Just so the info is out there:
HITH and HLLE are two different diseases.

HITH is hole in the head and caused by parasites, commonly found in angels and discus. It has deep narrow pits that may have a white discharge.

HLLE is head and lateral line erosion and usually caused by low quality food and water. It has wide shallow pits without any discharge (like the pic above). It a couple rare cases it has been caused by using carbon in the filters.

 

[mark4hay]

This is HITh

See it is when there are real holes in the head. It is normally the erosion of the sensory pits due to poor living conditions.
Your photo is hard to tell. But the fish looks kind of skinny it could be just the photo.

yeah it is a little bit skinny not to bad just not growing as quick as my other ram not sure what it is then its definitely not holes .

 

[Marius]

My parrot fish has the same problem,ive been searching for info to get her healed,she hed the hole in the head,pretty ugly hole,that has been cured after 3 weeks,got her back from people that looked after her for a year,but still has many of these small holes like ur fish does. I dont know the treatment,but i did a large water change since i didnt had water test kits.. Hopefully fish guy will have a awnser cuz id like my parrot fish to heal 2

 

[fishguy2727]

To elaborate on my previous post:

HITH (parasitic, common in discus and angels) is treated with metronidazole. I have used Aquarium Solutions' Metro+ effecctively.

HLLE (non-parasitic, common in oscars) is treated by fixing the problem, usually nutrition and water quality. This is pretty simple. I only feed and recommend New Life Spectrum exclusively, by far the best food out there right now. For water quality you need to do enough water changes to keep the nitrate concentration under 20ppm BEFORE a water change (it should never actually reach 20ppm ideally). In most cases of HLLE this will fix the problem.

Keep in mind that in general fish do not get sick unless they are stressed. There are always pathogens present. It is when the fish is stressed that its immune system is compromised and this is what allows whatever pathogens may be present to cause an infection.

 

[snowflake311]

To elaborate on my previous post:

HITH (parasitic, common in discus and angels) is treated with metronidazole. I have used Aquarium Solutions' Metro+ effecctively.

HLLE (non-parasitic, common in oscars) is treated by fixing the problem, usually nutrition and water quality. This is pretty simple. I only feed and recommend New Life Spectrum exclusively, by far the best food out there right now. For water quality you need to do enough water changes to keep the nitrate concentration under 20ppm BEFORE a water change (it should never actually reach 20ppm ideally). In most cases of HLLE this will fix the problem.

Keep in mind that in general fish do not get sick unless they are stressed. There are always pathogens present. It is when the fish is stressed that its immune system is compromised and this is what allows whatever pathogens may be present to cause an infection.

HITH is Hole In The Head
HILLE is Hole In Lateral Line Erosion

Both are cased by the same thing poor waters conditions and poor nutrition and a few other things could cause it. Hexamita is the parasite that was thought to be the cause of HITH .. Heximita is an intestinal parasite that can affect many tropical fish, interrupting the ability to absorb nutrients through the intestinal wall. hexamita when found in relation to HITH is actually a matter of a secondary infection brought on by the suppressed immune function and not the cause of the HITH.

HILLE is the same thing but effecting the latteral line on the fish.

I have rescued fish with both and they fully recover when given clean environments and good food.
Just to clear that up a bit.

 

[mark4hay]

To elaborate on my previous post:

HITH (parasitic, common in discus and angels) is treated with metronidazole. I have used Aquarium Solutions' Metro+ effecctively.

HLLE (non-parasitic, common in oscars) is treated by fixing the problem, usually nutrition and water quality. This is pretty simple. I only feed and recommend New Life Spectrum exclusively, by far the best food out there right now. For water quality you need to do enough water changes to keep the nitrate concentration under 20ppm BEFORE a water change (it should never actually reach 20ppm ideally). In most cases of HLLE this will fix the problem.

Keep in mind that in general fish do not get sick unless they are stressed. There are always pathogens present. It is when the fish is stressed that its immune system is compromised and this is what allows whatever pathogens may be present to cause an infection.

I can't get my nitrate below 20 ppm because the water from the tap has a higher nitrate level than that so what could i do to reduce the nitrate?

 

[fishguy2727]

Mark:
You have two options: keep it as low as you can with the tap water you have or buy distilled or RO water and use that to dilute your tap to get it below 20ppm.

Snowflake:
I have been studying this for years, I know what I am talking about. People want to hear 'x is caused by y' and depending on what fish you work with you my only ever see one type and develop the idea that it is truly one disease, but the experiences of aquarists do NOT support this hypothesis.

Scientific studies have shown that Hexammita spp. and Spironucleus vortens can both cause HITH in angels and discus. Althouh it can be infectious to other body organs and systems (like the liver, blood, etc, not just the intestinal tract) it is not a secondary infection. If this were not true you would see many more cases of discus and angels with it that do not respond to metronidazole. Fish in high quality water and fed high quality food can get it and all that is needed to treat it is metronidazole. The studies found Hexamita spp. and Spironucleus vortens in the actual pits, not just in the intestinal tract.

HLLE is caused by poor water and food quality (usually together since most aquarists who allow bad water quality will not be feeding the best and vice cersa). This is the usual cause in oscars and other fish (besides angels and discus).

I know there is A LOT of information about HITH and HLLE out there, and most of it conflicting. But this kind of information being repeated over and over doesn't make it true. I have been studying this for years. I have talked to countless aquarists, LFS employees, etc. and the experiences of people actually working with these diseases do not support the hypothesis that it is truly one disease. What primary research I could find on the subject also does not support that it is one disease.

I am not sure when it will be published, but Tropical Fish Hobbyist will be publishing the article I wrote on exactly this.

 

[snowflake311]

Nitrates at 20ppm are ok for fish try not to let it get higher. Get some fast growing easy plants they will use up the nitrates for you. Plants would be your best bet at keeping nitrates down.


As for HITH I had taken in 3 rescue fish one of them being that photo I posted. All 3 had bad HITH and a bit of the lateral line. The only treatment I gave them was extra clean water and quity food with vitamins that I added to the water. They recovered very fast with this treatment and now you can not tell they ever had it. My fish never had puss in the holes it was just the sensory pits that were eroding away due to very poor conditions. If the holes in the head have a white puss like gunk then it is most likely being caused by a parasite. But I am sorry not all HITH is caused by a parasite that is not true. I have a book on fish diseases that dr Herbert r Axelrod worked on it says " Acording to dr Schubert hexamita has never been found in discus. Even the spironucleus flagellate is only one of the possible causes of hole in head in cichlids. " I too have done lots research and successfully treated it in 4 different fish.

You sound like you know your stuff I'm not saying you don't. It's just to say HITH is causes by a parasite is wrong there is not just one cause so we can both agree on that.

 

[fishguy2727]

That is exactly what I am saying. It is not always caused by a parasite, except in discus and angels (HITH). In other fish it is HLLE and not caused by parasites. The symptoms are very similar in the big picture, but even the holes are different in one type and the other and we really need to stop lumping them together. This is one of the reasons why there is so much misunderstanding, conflicting information, and confusion about these diseases.

What types of fish were they that you treated without meds?

That quote is mistaken. Maybe when that book was published it hadn't been found in discus, but that has changed. Even if there is no Hexamita spp. found, Spironucleus vortens has been shown to cause HITH so that may have been the culprit. The study I quoted was only on angels and discus and found both Hexamita spp. and Spironucleus vortens in both angels and discus.

From my research, in angels and discus, it is HITH not HLLE and is caused by Hexamita spp. and/or Spironucleus vortens.

The white discharge is associated with these parasites, samples from those sites (holes with white discharge) are exactly where the scientists found Spironucleus vortens and Hexamita spp.

Feel free to read through the primary research articles if interested:
Francis-Floyd, Ruth and Reed, Peggy, Management of Hexamita in Ornamental Cichlids. University of Florida IFAS Extension, VM67

Poynton, S. L., Fraser, W., Francis-Floyd, R., Rutledge, P., Reed, P. and Nerad, T. A. (1995), Spironucleus vortens N. Sp. from the Freshwater Angelfish Pterophyllum scalare: Morphology and Culture. Journal of Eukaryotic Microbiology, 42: 731–742. doi: 10.1111/j.1550-7408.1995.tb01625.x

Klinger, RuthEllen and Francis-Floyd, Ruth, Introduction to Freshwater Fish Parasites, University of Florida IFAS Extension, CIR716

Paull, Gregory C. and Matthews, R.A., Spironucleis vortens, a Possible Cause of Hole-In-The-Head Disease in Cichlids, Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 45 197-202, 2001