IS there such a thing as mature?

[Tiggs]

Okay I've gotten a bit off subject, As for the subject getting your system stable and keeping it there is a great thing to do before you start in on moderately difficult critters like echinoderms.

Nav, can you split this topic up into two? one on subject one regarding the starfish issues

Thx

"Whilsdt you might have a starfish that looks great and I hope that it will stay that way, the same stafish can die from a water inbalance from 12 months earlier in its life."

i dont disagre with much of the advice (apart from that bit above) my issue is that i dont agree with the standard "wait 6 months..." approach with no alternative given because its not realistic to expect joe bloggs to do that - i belive in decent infomation to let people achive as near to what they want as possible. If someone WANTS a starfish NOW and im saying wait 2 months they may wait...you tell them to wait 6 and they will think "sod it" and buy it now anyway even more so when the LFS says its fine.

i think a lot of the "ideal" advice causes more problems for stock than it helps because its unrealistic...not incorrect but unrealistic.

 

[Opcn]

I would argue that it is important because it saves starfish lives, no one is going to do the alternative, its an impractical alternative, or a roulete wheel spinning, its wrong to spin the rouloette wheel on an animals live, its wrong. We cannot plan for that idiot who doesnt follow advice our only hope is that they will leave the hoby before they start getting rare animals. if we only gave advice that every idiot would follow we would leave alot of smart and caring people thinking the wrong thing. Its very obvious that you deal with human relations and not a hard science, what matters to the animals is fact not human behavior, we have to ensure that good information gets out there, weather or not a certain idiotic percentage will follow information from a reputable source or not shouldnt play a factor.

 

[Navarre]

I had 2 linka starfish when ifirst started out with marines. They lasted 6 motnsh each.. both died within a few weeks from each other and both died in the same manner.. falling apart in front my eyes.. WHen i first started out i was doing regualr water checks and monitoring perameters practically every moment of the day.. probably over cautious to be honest so i know that all water perameters that I could test for wwere well within acceptable living conditions.
What was the only contributing factors that linked these 2 starfish deaths? Well.. 5 Months earlier both of these animals were removed from the tank and placed into the bag thus exposing them to air. This is not usually recomended for any creture of this nature. So is it possible that the starfish got aair trapped within them in a similar fashion to spnges? When a sponge gets air trapped in it this can take a long while to die also. So perhaps the air slowly rotted away the starfish internally until it came to a point where a vital organ within the starfish died and thus the rest fell apart extremly quickly? To be honest we will never know but its a theory and one that "could" have happened. As a famous perso once said, once we have eliminated the probable, we must consider the improbable no matter how absurd it might be. Whils the trapped air theory has little or nothing to do with poor/unstable water conditions its also possible to see that things that efect an animal weeks/months earlier may have an impact later on. Whilst its great to say that many starfish are capable of outliving us humans in certain conditions i would argue that a reef starfish is a co mpletely different things all together. Some starfish live invery poor waters, near estuaries etc but a reef starfish has no defence against any changes in water composition or chemistry. They cannot adjust to changing water perameters as they simply havent needed to evolve in this manner. This is why marine fish need stable condition as apposed totheir freshwater cousins. Freshwater rivers/lakes ect dry up, flood, rise and fall in temperatures throughout the year. This means over millions of years our freshwater cousins have adapted to changes that happend relatively fast compared to an ocean.. The same cannot be said for our marine livestock, they can cope with good condiotns... they can even cope with relativels poor conditions (to a certain degree) but they cannot cope well with canging conditions. and a starfish is far less evolved thana fish and thus a change i perameters (hence a new tank) means this is a danger period for any starfish or simple invert.

I will also add that i am only now condsier adding a starfish to my main tank and this has been running with already mature water since march. the water was in the old 100 gallon system before this (well half of it was) and i only now feel confident enough to risking this animals life within my system.

I do already have 2 sandsifete starfish in the system and this is probably one of the very few starfish that i would say are able to handle a new tank. (maybe due to their lives are spent in nutrient richer deep sand

 

[bunjiweb]

Tiggs you are a very aggressive and sometimes far too questioning of other peoples beliefs in a system. In a way I agree that if we have nothing to show, how can we guarentee the whole tank maturing and water maturing things aren't all a load of irrelevant rubbish.

All we can go on is peoples experiences, and in many people's experiences StarFish just don't do verywell in newly established tank. Thats all we can say, we don't have to provide a reason or rhyme to this, because not all of us know, and its blatently obvious that you are just dismissing everyones comments because they don't tally with your own ideas or views.

I suggest you take a step back and actually try to find out yourself via as much research as you can. If you want to test your own ideas, then its your own time and money to test, however, If or when you go about this, do it with a reserved ammount of respect for people who have spent the time to do things carefully and properly because they want to cause the least ammount of harm to their tanks livestock.



Ben

 

[Opcn]

Hey Nav,Echinoderms dont have the internal matrix that sponges do, in a starfish everything enters throught the central disk and is pushed down tubes into the arms, the starfish has the camability to purge itself unlike a sponge that functions on cillia pushing water throught the matrix within the tissue.

Opcn

 

[steelhealr]

I don't want to gang up on Tiggs, but just wanted to post a few thoughts here. Having come over from FW, like most of us, I'm sure we all understand the dramatic differences between maintaining a marine vs. a freshwater tank. Although there are very challenging areas of being a freshwater aquarist, discus keeping eg or a wonderful planted tank, there is something special about supporting a successful marine tank. The animals that we keep are bright, colorful, unusual and in many circumstances, rare. Some of the fish and the coral we keep are exquisite forms of life, leading us to ask ourselves what is our responsibility to our inhabitants, the environment and fellow reefkeepers? Do we owe it to ourselves to be conscientious reefkeepers.

So Tiggs, to go the original problem, I'd like to post what I believe to be a few marine facts, or perhaps I should say accepted marine thought. Please..Navarre and others here, feel free to correct me.

1) The most critical time period of a marine tank's life is during initial startup.
2) Like anything in life, starting a new endeavour many times has a learning curve during which time a lack of experience can lead to honest errors
3) Marine reef setups can have swings in pH until the buffering system adjusts, including calcium/alkalinity balance
4) The most common time for unwanted disease and algae blooms such as hair algae or cyanobacteria occur early on, the treatment of which including frequent water changes can stress tank inhabitants.

As for sea stars:
1) They are extremely sensitive to pH and s.g. changes, nitrates, copper etc
2) No one completely understands the diet necessary for a sea star to survive successfully. Many of them actually require sponges to survive which few of us keep in our tanks
3) The longer a tank is up and running, the more time it has to develop the life that perhaps a star can survive on
4) The larger the tank, the more diversity it can support, the larger the surface area for a star to survive on.
3) A disintegrating star can wreak havoc on a tank

Ignoring what is generally accepted as safe marine tank guidelines or, worse, casting off the experience of honest more experienced marine aquarists, IMO, is not only poor judgement but shows lack of conscientious reefkeeping. It make NO sense to jeopardize your tank, but it also makes no sense to come across as an impulsive aquarist to your fellow forum members. I don't think anyone would take someone to task here for embarking on a well thought out plan for adding a delicate creature that they wanted to their tank, added under circumstances that would maximize it's chance for survival. Tossing it in your tank on impulse is another story. JMO. SH

 

[Tiggs]

i really cant see what the big deal is here???

the original poster (before this thread was hacked up) had a sick fish. the 1st advice he was given was that you shouldnt have a star fish for 6 months......this was backed up soon after that they can die 12 months after an inital bad start.

my ONLY point was that that sort of advice wont stop people from adding things in a poor fashion to their tanks because it is unrealistic and, some of it, based on -at best- a guess.

i agree that in an ideal world people wouldnt have stars to soon- in an ideal world reef tanks WOULDNT EXIST at all.....if anyone wants to explain how a glass tank (of any size) is better than the sea im all ears.

but tanks do exist and so do newbies.....if you think newbies will be put of buying something as cheap and expendable (and yes...to many a £10 star is VERY expendable) when they are told to leave it for half a year then great- i hope you are right.

personally i think they will buy it anyway and should be advised considering this more realistic situation...even more so when the LFS will tell them its fine.

to clarify for those that are confused still.....i AGREE star fish are delicate- i AGREE newbies should steer clear......i DONT agree they will and i dont belive idealistic advice (based on speculation) will help.

if anyone thinks im nuts go down the LFS and watch the stars being sold tommorow.....all going into mature tanks? i doubt it.

T

ps "As a famous perso once said, once we have eliminated the probable, we must consider the improbable no matter how absurd it might be." is it not probable they both got sick for an unknown reason? why race to improbable?

pps "Tiggs you are a very aggressive and sometimes far too questioning of other peoples beliefs in a system" aggressive??? are you sure? i suggest you report me to the mods who can ban me if you belive i am being aggressive (FWIW i belive you are over sensative but i'll let it go for now ohh....and i wont apologise for asking questions.

 

[Navarre]

I am a mod and i can ban you.

my patience is running thin and the only reason i leave your drivel here is so that other people can see the entire weight of opinion against you.

I will metion this as i feel it very relivant...
I have moderated this forum for well over a year now and during this time i have never had to deal with such aggressive and antagonistic behaviour.

If you feel the entire weight of opinion of this forum (and other forums as i have seen your crap elsewhere) is a waste of space then go do your own thing, create the tank that you say you can achieve and once you have done this, go write a book on it and find some ususpecting publisher to publish it. Only then, when you have some credabilty can i say you are welcome to come back here and give the finger to the experience of millions of experienced reefkeepres out there.

 

[bunjiweb]

Sorry Tiggs but it is you who has hacked up the thread, and yes, you are being unecessarily aggressive, No you aren't out right being "rude" but the tone in which you post is simply derogatory in parts. I myself had to learn that the best way to be on the forums is to offer your own incite, ideas and advice where possible but remember to respect other peoples opinions or views as best you can. If someone is talking outright bollocks then feel free to step in, but there is no point antagonising a situation because you are unsatisfied that people are not providing you with the perfect answer.

After all, we can debate a subject like this forever and get no where, "What Is the meaning of Life?"....

Ben

 

[Lynden]

Wow, this is quite the thread we have going on here. Personally, I think you all have some petty reasonable opinions, the fact that newbies buy "expert" animals all the time is very true. But the fact that this information about sea stars and such does come from expert aquarists who have not only spent years as aquarists but as reefkeepers.... That info should never be simply sluffed off. Sure, it is occasionally only a guess, but we can all assume that it is a well-educated guess that can be trusted. Im not trying to gang up on Tiggs, but I firmly agree with the opinions against you.


-Lynden

 

[Tiggs]

"I am a mod and i can ban you."

lol.....wheres the scared smilley? that will have to do!


Can someone point out what i have ACTUALLY said that is so bad? my only point is that the style of advice given at the moment isnt working.

Its like telling kids DONT DO DRUGS and hope they listen!

 

[Opcn]

"I am a mod and i can ban you."

lol.....wheres the scared smilley? that will have to do!


Can someone point out what i have ACTUALLY said that is so bad? my only point is that the style of advice given at the moment isnt working.

Its like telling kids DONT DO DRUGS and hope they listen!

Are you telling us that you didn't listen when you were a kid?

What you did is come in and tell everyone that the conventions were all wrong because of the way things happened in your tank, You never backed anything up with any evidence (except the twelve month thing, wich you fought with a little sucess, we should have a discussion about that in another thread some time) but the 6 month issue you simply came in and said "[thats bs, a system could possibly be set up so that it is stable after one month]" but the fact still remains that the VAST VAST VAST majority of tanks are unstable at that point, you cant throw things out because you want to.

 

[Lynden]

Please tiggs, do not mock people, it is extremely annoying. And about the "its like telling kids not to do drugs and hoping they will listen" part, well, the fact is, if the kids are smart, they will listen. Maybe you should smarten up and start listening as well.


-Lynden

 

[Tiggs]

"I am a mod and i can ban you."

lol.....wheres the scared smilley? that will have to do!


Can someone point out what i have ACTUALLY said that is so bad? my only point is that the style of advice given at the moment isnt working.

Its like telling kids DONT DO DRUGS and hope they listen!

Are you telling us that you didn't listen when you were a kid?

What you did is come in and tell everyone that the conventions were all wrong because of the way things happened in your tank, You never backed anything up with any evidence (except the twelve month thing, wich you fought with a little sucess, we should have a discussion about that in another thread some time) but the 6 month issue you simply came in and said "[thats bs, a system could possibly be set up so that it is stable after one month]" but the fact still remains that the VAST VAST VAST majority of tanks are unstable at that point, you cant throw things out because you want to.

no...i didnt do that at all. please READ my posts first.

Please tiggs, do not mock people, it is extremely annoying. And about the "its like telling kids not to do drugs and hoping they will listen" part, well, the fact is, if the kids are smart, they will listen. Maybe you should smarten up and start listening as well.


-Lynden

Mock??? if you mean Navarre i assume hes an adult and therefore quite able to handle the odd smiley (if he isnt then being a mod on an internet forum is the last place he should be)

and your idea that the smart ones will be ok doesnt fly.......there are as many stupid kids and as many stupid reef keepers as there are smart ones- which is why kids take drugs and this forum is full off people using tap water on reefs, buying anemones on day 1, ect, ect......my only hope is that advice could be given to help these people and just stating DONT DO IT.....ITS BAD and assuming it will work is naive.

 

[Chac]

Can I ask the reason this thread is still open as IMO it is doing no good whatsoever to the Saltie Forum

Also Tiggs I like Lynden do think you are take the P*** & you are mocking Nav., IMO he has answered every question with honest & well thought out answers only to have a barrage of questions thrown back at him, in something resembling a childish hissy fit

As I say I am in favour of closing this thread as it IMO is doing more harm than good