IS there such a thing as mature?

[Tiggs]

"No starfish should relaly be put into a system within the first 6 months as they need mature systems."

what is within a tank after 6 months that does not exist after 2?

 

[Opcn]

Ballance, thats what exists

 

[Tiggs]

Ballance, thats what exists

balance exists when it exists. It may be more likley after 6 months but its also more likley after 1 in a proper set up tank than in 12 in a tank of crap.

im all for stocking at the right time but i think "wait X months" doesnt help if people dont know what they are after.

I have had starfish since day 1 and they are fine- my tank has never lacked balance.

 

[Navarre]

You can never tell if a tank lacks balance as we simply cannot test for everything in the water and we dont monitor it 24/7. A starfish in the early setup stages of a tank is dangerous at best (some species moreso than others) Whilst the tank mightbe showing good water condition there are factors we simply dont test for that might play a factor and suddenly unsettle the tank even if only for a few hours (this usually happend at night when PH fluctuations are most vulnerable). You could go to bed with a tank looking very stable, you could wake up with the same stable looking tank yet during hte night the PH could have dropped and climbed again, and during this time its possible to release/trigger reactions in the water that could effect the stock we have. As Starfish are extremly delicate to changes in water its a precautionary bit of advice to allow the tank to settle for a period of time so these types of fluctuations can be kept to a minimum. Whilsdt you might have a starfish that looks great and I hope that it will stay that way, the same stafish can die from a water inbalance from 12 months earlier in its life.

 

[Tiggs]

You can never tell if a tank lacks balance as we simply cannot test for everything in the water and we dont monitor it 24/7. A starfish in the early setup stages of a tank is dangerous at best (some species moreso than others) Whilst the tank mightbe showing good water condition there are factors we simply dont test for that might play a factor and suddenly unsettle the tank even if only for a few hours (this usually happend at night when PH fluctuations are most vulnerable). You could go to bed with a tank looking very stable, you could wake up with the same stable looking tank yet during hte night the PH could have dropped and climbed again, and during this time its possible to release/trigger reactions in the water that could effect the stock we have. As Starfish are extremly delicate to changes in water its a precautionary bit of advice to allow the tank to settle for a period of time so these types of fluctuations can be kept to a minimum. Whilsdt you might have a starfish that looks great and I hope that it will stay that way, the same stafish can die from a water inbalance from 12 months earlier in its life.

my PH probe produces a graph on my pc to show fluctuations over 24 hrs.

 

[Navarre]

And very nice it is too i am sure but this is simply once instance. No one can test for everything and if we cannot test for everything then we cannot be sure the tank is completely stable.. The only thing we can go by on this is time and patience. The longer the tank functions with no fluctuations the less chance of a problem occuring due to instability.

 

[Tiggs]

And very nice it is too i am sure but this is simply once instance. No one can test for everything and if we cannot test for everything then we cannot be sure the tank is completely stable.. The only thing we can go by on this is time and patience. The longer the tank functions with no fluctuations the less chance of a problem occuring due to instability.

if you cant test for it how can you be sure it exists after 1 yr/5yrs/ever?

and how can you link the death of a sea star to something it experienced 12 months prior - this hobby is like religion with people just saying "trust me...marines move in mysterious ways"

i would love to see the study on starfish deaths and the cause being water conditions 12 months prior!

 

[Navarre]

You can argue all you like about the "proof" its not written in stone like some 10 commandments its experiences that 1000s of reefkeepers have learnt over many many years.

You wanna buck the trend and throw all this knowledge and understanding out the window then feel free and go your own way but i will tell you this right now, i wont stand for the arrogant way you have posted on other forums about how you can just throw the knowledge and wisdom of others out the window and make beginners feel they can go down a similar route.. its people like this that make others try and make shortcuts and its people like the other experienced reefkeepers on here have to pick up the pieces.

I might have come over harsh here but i wont stand for it here. The marine section is a small group and we are all as helpful as possible. I wont stand by and let bad practices ruin what i and many others on here have worked very hard to achieve.

 

[Ed4567]

what is within a tank after 6 months that does not exist after 2?

deja vou anyone?

 

[Opcn]

Have you ever heard the term better to be safe than sorry? Well most of the animals in our reef tanks come from real coral reefs and it’s intensely important that everyone who is not an arrogant (Words filled with rage) should endeavor to not encourage newbies to take risks. Sure if you go to great lengths and set up a tank just right you will have balance from month one, but most of the time that is the result of A) extreme luck or B) an extremely rare setup circumstance (i.e., buying LR and LS from an established tank and getting the right number of scavengers) but what you don’t seem to realize is that virtually no one has a stable tank after only a month, most reef keepers are still getting die off from their LR at 1 month sure the majority wont have any fluctuations that will kill a starfish at 3 months but still too many will, You being an exception to the general guideline doesn’t make the general guideline worthless, I had a puffer fish in with long finned Danios in a FW system and the long finned Danios managed to not get nipped that doesn’t mean that puffers don’t eat fins it means that in this case that didn't happen. The fish I had before it nipped the long fins every now and then, and the one before that, this puffer was just exceptional.

Also, the pH monitoring doodad in your tank, while it is really cool is also a lot more money than most reef keepers want to spend. Nav. was talking about the typical new reef setup, he doesn't know anything about your setup, he hasn't ever taken a water sample or watched your fish for signs of stress or anything, talking about your own tank isn't going to have any weight on his argument.

 

[Tiggs]

beginers will continue to screw up as long as they are given advice they dont belive. saying that starfish (which fall apart very fast when ill) can die 365 days AFTER their bad start is like saying to a kid put that knife down, you''ll have someones eye out...they wont belive you and so will still play with it. tell them they may cut their finger and they might just think twice.

the advice in this hobby is often patronising and vauge.....i agree with newbies going slow (in fact half the people here with their "can i run a reef in a 3g jug" questions need a stern word) but you wont help them by making it seem such an unmeasurable science that they may as well just have a stab at it their way.

 

[Opcn]

I never said that 365 days after a bad start a starfish might die, I simply think that a starfish shouldnt get a bad start. What matters is giving the right advice, the fact that some idiot out there might not believe it doesnt really have merit, There are people who will put goldfish into bowls, we know that that is a truely horrible thing to do, but they still do it, and we can't just tell them that its okay because they don't believe it. The fact of the matter is that reef ecology is very complex, people go to college for years to understand it, perhaps rather than trying to undermin the understnding of the complex system you could try to enhance it, maybe to do some research and come in here with something other than anecdotal evidence,

 

[Tiggs]

ok...heres the problem.

this thread was started by someone who never posted a thing about their tank so we have NO IDEA why this animal died.

before any tank conditions were established advice was given that starfish shouldnt be added to a tank for 6 months.....as we know nothing about the posters tank we have no idea if this is good advice for him or not - for all we know he may have a monster crab in there chowing down on his animals while we debate water maturity.

now we also have newbies reading this, people who may be considering setting up a tank of their own...and they want a star - because who wouldnt!

now they read that star fish cant be added for 6 months and that they can die a year after introduced due to a poor start (and that WAS stated, not by you though) They go down their pet shop and see one for £10......they think, "well i aint waiting 6 bloody months for something that may live a year then die anyway" so they just buy it...what the hell - and that happens ALL THE TIME.

if we told these people that star fish need a tank that is well cycled with decent LR (ideally from an established tank), as long as they look after their water, test regular, stock slow, ect, ect then they can add a star a few weeks after they begin stocking with fish they may well wait - and they will have a better tank for it.

its not an ideal world and better that people are advised based on what most do anyway instead of an ideal that is based on not much more than "its too complex to explain"

"maybe to do some research and come in here with something other than anecdotal evidence" I have research long and hard on starfish and found nothing that suggests they die months after being introduced even if water is perfect at that point...i would genuinly love to see some info on that. my own experience is that they can be incredible survivors and recover from very poor conditions that would see off most humans!

I work in sales and know that to get people to buy 10 you are often better trying to sell 8 because you'll get more buyers.....the odd bloke buying 10 isnt worth it.

just look at ebay- this hobby is full of people that thought stuff the advice to wait 6 months for a crab- i'll do it my way and they fail...and sell their gear.

 

[Opcn]

I'm sorry, did I miss were someone said that a bad acclimation can kill a starfish a year later in this thread? I've seen Nab say 6 months later before and I have disagreed with him about it but thats not the issue that I am disagreeing with you about. Also this poster has posted before

his thread was started by someone who never posted a thing about their tank so we have NO IDEA why this animal died.

You're absolutely right, they never posted a thing, oh wait what are these, 4 posts about there tank, its brand new, oh would you look at that Navs advice is relevent.

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=109621&hl=
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=110102&hl=
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=110019&hl=
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=109589&hl=
You say that you researched but all you have brought to the table is anecdotal evidence, please show me a creditable source that says that tanks are ballanced after 1 month.

 

[Opcn]

Okay I've gotten a bit off subject, As for the subject getting your system stable and keeping it there is a great thing to do before you start in on moderately difficult critters like echinoderms.

Nav, can you split this topic up into two? one on subject one regarding the starfish issues

Thx