Is My Cycle Stalled? Ammonia Never Goes Below 1 Ppm

[Stormer]

I am doing a fishless cycle with 10 gallon tank, heated to 83-85 degrees, bubble stone and using Prime.   I set up my tank on May 10th and let it run until May 16th not doing anything (waiting to find pure ammonia source).  Aquaclear 20 filter.  Everything is brand new in the tank but I did use rocks from an old tank and squeezed some filter media onto the new sponge but there wasn't a lot as it was from a 1.5 gallon tank.
 
May 16th:   Dosed the tank to 4 ppm ammonia (now after reading I realized that was too much)
May 17th:  Nothing changed
May 18th:  Ammonia 4 ppm, Nitrites 1 ppm  (did not test for nitrates), PH:  7.6
May 19th:  Ammonia 2 ppm, nitrites 5 ppm, nitrates, 5 ppm, PH:  7.8
May 20th:  Ammonia 2 ppm, nitrites 5 ppm, nitrates 5 ppm, PH 7.8
May 21st:  Ammonia 1 ppm, nitrites 5 ppm+, nitrates 5 ppm, PH 7.8
Dosed tank with ammonia to 3 ppm 
May 22nd:  ammonia 2 ppm, nitrites 5+ ppm, nitrates 1-5 ppm, PH 7.8
May 23rd:  Did not test
May 24th:  ammonia 1-2 ppm, Nitrites 5 ppm, Nitrates 1-5 ppm, PH 8.0
May 25th:  ammonia 1 ppm, nitrites 1 ppm, nitrates 10 ppm, PH 8.0
May 26th:  ammonia 1 ppm, nitrites .25 ppm, nitrates 1-5 ppm, PH 8.0
Did a 25% water change and waited 1 hour and took my water to LFS to test 
Their readings:   ammonia .50 ppm, nitrites, .25 ppm, nitrates 15 ppm  came home and dosed 2nd dose of ammonia 1 ppm
May 27th:  ammonia 1.50 ppm, nitrites 0 ppm, nitrates 1-5 ppm, PH 8.2
 
I have asked in other forums why my ammonia is never really going down and I've been told to be patient.  I followed directions for fishless cycling on another forum and wish I would have started here first.   It seems my nitrites have peaked and now are clearly at 0 so I would think that my ammonia would be going down as well but I can't seem to ever get them under 1 ppm.   I also use the API Master Test kit and the LFS used a strip.    I just want to make sure that I haven't done something wrong or that my cycle is stalled for some reason.   My tap water tested .50 ammonia, 0 for nitrates. Sorry for all the information.  Any advice is welcome!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

No reason to be sorry for all the information!  This is the information you would have been asked for anyway, so its a perfect way to start!!!  
 
 
Everything looks good, for the most part.  The use of the media squeezings and old rocks from an established tank explain why your nitrites would have shown up so fast.  The tap water showing ammonia isn't surprising.  That happens to a fair number of folks, and isn't a concern long term, most dechlorinator products can deal with that ammonia, until its dealt with by the biological filtration.
 
 
There's two things that we need to address:
 
1 - the ammonia situation
2 - the pH is rising
 
 
First, the ammonia - patience is still warranted.   Its a bit unusual to be seeing the ammonia still present like this, but not a cause for concern.  You are adding ammonia quite frequently, and are still rather early in the total process.  One thing to watch out for is to take your visual reading of the ammonia test in NATURAL light and follow the directions to the letter.  Look DOWN through the tube for best color match.
 
 
Second, your pH seems to be consistently rising.  What substrate or other materials are in the tank?  The pH would normally drop slightly during a cycling process as nitrate builds up as nitric acid.  BUT, this is not the case in your tank, so I have to assume that your substrate or some other decor is leaching into the water.  That isn't an issue of major concern in and of itself, but is something to take note of.

 

[Stormer]

Last night was the first time my PH went up and I wondered about that too.   I have gravel (rinsed before putting in tank), silk plants, decorative rocks from the petstore.   I did have a piece of driftwood but I took that out right away when I noticed it was leaching into the tank.   That piece of driftwood is sitting in a bucket still leaching after multiple times being boiled.  I do have a volcano bubbler that my son just had to have but other than that nothing.  I have not been looking down the tube because the directions say to hold against the card to compare.  I think if I look down the tube it would be a lighter green color but it has never been a yellow-green color.   If I test using the regular PH and not the High PH then I get a nice dark blue color.   Should I be testing both the regular and high and averaging them?    

 

[Stormer]

So I tested my water last night with the suggestions you gave about reading the results
 
ammonia:  between .75-1.00 ppm
Nitrite:  0
Nitrate:  between 1-5 ppm (I cannot get my solution to read properly no matter how much I shake the 2nd bottle or the tube)
PH High:   8.0 or a little less
PH Normal:  Bright blue color
 
Once my ammonia gets to zero do I add 2 ppm of ammonia and check it in 24 hours to see if it is back to zero?   

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Ok... one thing to note here:  tannins added to the tank will affect your ability to read the color tubes.  So, this could be playing a role in your readings.
 
 
According to what you are saying, you are saying that the nitrite is 0 - very pretty pale blue color, and the ammonia is sitting with a yellowy color with a hint of 'green'?
 
 
Tannins are brownish, and it could be giving you a misreading on the ammonia, and you might actually have no ammonia in the tank.  
 
 
 
Regarding the pH tests... no.  The 'regular' pH test is only accurate in the range for which you have values on the card.  The same is true of the high pH test.  It is only valid for the range on the card.  So, if your regular pH test is reading at the top of the scale, then you need to do the high pH test to determine how high it truly is.  
 
 
 
What is your tap water pH after sitting for 24 hours?  This will give an indication of whether the value in the tank is what is coming out of your tap, or if there is something leeching into the tank to raise it.  
 
 
 
 
Here's what I would suggest:  Leave everything in the tank as is for the next 24 hours.  Get a reading of your tap water pH after letting it gas off for 24 hours.  Then retest the tank for ammonia, nitrite and pH.  If you can somehow determine your kH as well, that would be helpful.  The LFS should be able to do that for you if you bring them a sample of your water.
 
 
After that, I'd suggest that you add 2ppm ammonia as you suggest and retest 24 hours later.  
 
 
Chances are you might need to remove the tannins from the tank to get a proper measurement (either through changing the water, or adding activated carbon to the filter - this would be one of the cases where carbon is useful in the filter).

 

[Stormer]

I only had the driftwood in my tank for about 10 minutes and as soon as I noticed the water color change to a light brownish I immediately took it out and have had carbon running this whole time.  My water is crystal clear.   
 
My ammonia is more green with a hint of yellow closer to 1 ppm than .50 ppm
Nitrites are clearly a light blue
PH last night was a very pale brownish color a little lighter than the 8 on the scale
 
I have not tested the tap PH so I will do so tonight to get a better reading.     
 
Any other suggestions?   If I could only get my ammonia down or even see some type of significant decrease just once that would be one less problem to deal with.   And who knows maybe the tannins are in the gravel and such and I don't even know it.    

 

[eaglesaquarium]

No, the tannins would remain in the water column... so then the color isn't being affected by the tannins - that's good to know.
 
Are you testing the water from the middle of the tank, and using the lid for the tube, not your finger to cover it for the purposes of shaking?   You want the water from the center of the tube... dipping the tube into the tank inverted and then tipping it over while in the middle of the tank will be the best option... or using a medicine dropper, and filling it up while the tip is in the center of the tank is the best way to go about this.
 
 
The next step would be... waiting.  Since the color is accurate, there's nothing else that you could do for now.   You did say that you seed the tank a bit, with some old gravel/rocks and some media squeezings... so that is why the nitrite is where it is.   That part makes sense.  The ammonia is lagging behind, but I wouldn't be overly worried about it honestly.  You are at about 2 weeks into the cycle - and you are far ahead of most cycles done without any seeding of bacteria.
 
 
Its just a waiting game now.  I'd still give it another 24-48 hours to see where the ammonia goes at that point - then add 2ppm on Sunday or Monday.  Wait 24 hours and test again.   If your nitrites still sit at 0, while the ammonia drops, that's perfect.  You'll just have to wait for the ammonia bacteria to multiply sufficiently to handle all of the ammonia.  Honestly, I wouldn't expect that it would take much longer.

 

[Stormer]

So if the ammonia still has not budged by Sunday or Monday do I still add more ammonia or just wait until it drops to add more?   It seems like the tank can process 1 ppm of ammonia in 2 days but that is as far as it has ever got.   It is also hard to read the colors on the charts versus what is in the tube.   I have even stooped to asking my son and my husband (who is color blind) to give me their opinions.   
 
I use the caps for the testing tubes and get the water from the middle of the tank but I will be extra careful tonight when testing to see if that helps any and I will test my tap water to see what the PH is.  I'm sure I am just getting impatient even though I knew going in it might take a month or more.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Just a couple of comments here. When one seeds a tank by using things from an established tank, you are not moving over bacteria, you are moving over entire biofilms with established nitrifying bacteria. In any bit of biofilm there are a host of bacteria. But when it comes to the nitrifyers, they are there in a balance. What this means is there is a match between the ammonia oxidizing and the nitrite oxidizing capacity involved. Basically this means whatever amount of ammonia it might process it can also handle all of the nitrite this might produce. The net result is ultimately 0/0 readings.
 
When we seed a tank it means whatever amount of ammonia oxidizing capacity we have added,, we also have a matching nitrite oxidizing capacity. In most cases we do not move sufficient bacteria in to have a tank be fully cycled. So we start to add ammonia and what should happen? The ammonia bacs present will process X amount of ammonia (as NH3) in  24 hours and this creates a commensurate amount of nitrite. Now, the amount of ammonia we add being greater than the amount the bacteria can process means we get an ammonia reading. However, at first we will not get a nitrite reading. This is because whatever nitrite the bacteria have made is processed as well. However, the excess ammonia causes the ammonia bacs to multiply and the result then is ammonia drops but then nitrite rises. So nitrite levels will read higher than ammonia levels when ammonia levels are dropping. This is especially true since the nitrite bacs take longer to multiply than the ammonia bacs.
 
However, here there is a second factor here, live plants. Live plants also use ammonia (as NH4). But when plants take up ammonia, they do not create nitrite. So in a tank with plants there will be less nitrite present after ammonia is added. Given enough plants (which also have nitrifying bacteria on them) one may never see nitrite even as we see ammonia drop to 0. The point here is that under most circumstances of fishless cycling it is not usual to have ammonia but not nitrite for any length of time especially when we see ammonia dropping.
 
Because ammonia bacs can double in under 12 hours, if one has enough bacs to handle say 2/3 ppm, in another day the colony will have increased to handle that 3rd ppm. So my problem here is based on what I have read in this thread something is off in the numbers reported. They do not make sense to me. In a lot of cases like this the explanation is testing errors or else the omission of other factors that would explain things.
 
As for testing nitrate in a planted tank, this is normally done to determine if we need to add nitrate not worry about it building up. Testing nitrate in a planted tank if one is cycling some as well cannot be used as an indicator of anything except if the plants have more or less than they need. it will not help us gauge where a cycle may be or what the capacity of a tank is to process ammonia and nitrite.

 

[Stormer]

I have been testing now for 2 weeks and the only test I really have trouble with is Nitrate but the others especially Nitrite were pretty clear.   I don't have a planted tank,  I have fake silk plants in my tank and gravel.   I too assumed that once my nitrites peaked and started to drop that my ammonia would drop as well or at least drop below 1 ppm.   I did take my water to my LFS and they used the test strips and got different numbers than what I did on the ammonia and the nitrates but we were both close on nitrites.   
 
So do I need to do something different or just let the tank sit and keep working?

Should I do a large water change and see if that will bring ammonia down?   

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have been testing now for 2 weeks and the only test I really have trouble with is Nitrate but the others especially Nitrite were pretty clear.   I don't have a planted tank,  I have fake silk plants in my tank and gravel.   I too assumed that once my nitrites peaked and started to drop that my ammonia would drop as well or at least drop below 1 ppm.   I did take my water to my LFS and they used the test strips and got different numbers than what I did on the ammonia and the nitrates but we were both close on nitrites.   
 
So do I need to do something different or just let the tank sit and keep working?

Should I do a large water change and see if that will bring ammonia down?   

 
The test strips are very erratic, honestly.  So, I wouldn't be concerned about them getting slightly different values from what you had gotten.
 
 
I'd stick to the 'let the tank do its thing'.  The beauty of a fishless cycle is that in the absolute worst case scenario that you mess everything up that can possibly be messed up, the only thing you are killing is time.  And that's what the cycling process takes... time.  I'd just sit tight for another day or so, and then look to bump the ammonia up a bit in a day or two (adding only 2ppm).
 
Seeing the nitrite at zero is a good sign that you won't stall the cycle.  
 
And don't feel bad about asking someone else to check the colors in the tubes.  I always have my wife check mine when I test, she is far better at discerning color differences than I am.

 

[Stormer]

So in a day or two do I add ammonia even if it is still sitting at 1 ppm?   Or do I wait even further until ammonia comes down?   And if the answer is add ammonia anyway in a day or two and the ammonia reading is still 1 ppm do I dose the tank just 1 ppm to get it to 2 ppm or add 2 ppm of ammonia on top of what is already in the tank.  
 
Sorry for all the questions.  I don't have a problem just letting the tank sit but wanted to make sure I am on track.   

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Sorry about the plant comments. I combined information from two different threads here, However, the observations about ammonia and nitrite are still accurate.The information about seeding and having a balance between the ammonia and nitrite bacs.
 
However, some things still stick out. Whatever you added from the old tank had little to no bacteria on it. This is simple to deduce from the way ammonia moved. Once it starts to drop it should not stop doing so. Yet yours has appeared to move in fits and starts, so to speak. Let me explain.
 
You start at 4 ppm on day one. Day 2 the numbers do not change. Day 3 you still have 4 ppm of ammonia and now report 1 ppm of nitrite. If the ammonia had not dropped, from where did that 1 ppm of nitrite come? Between day 3 and 4 ammonia dropped in half to 2 ppm. This is too much too fast given it did not budge until this point. But lets assume it did drop 2 ppm, the result would be 5+ ppm of nitrite. But the mystery deepens. if a tank can process 2 ppm of ammonia in 24 hours and it did so between days 3 and 4, this would mean the tank had sufficient bacteria to process 2 ppm in 24 hours. Yet the next 24 hours the tank processed no ammonia- again, not really possible.
 
But there is more i see as potential issues. You wrote "May 21st:  Ammonia 1 ppm, nitrites 5 ppm+, nitrates 5 ppm, PH 7.8
Dosed tank with ammonia to 3 ppm" But the directions here state:
If at any time after the first ammonia addition (Dose #1) you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia (Dose #2). Add the same full amount as you did the first time.
 
So your ammonia was not under .75 ppm and then you added too little ammonia. The directions state one should add the same amount of ammonia, not that one should dose back to 3 ppm. Moreover, the directions also do not tell one to change any water during the cycle unless it stalls completely, yous has not done this.
 
And then looking at days from May 21- 26, the numbers don't make much sense either. I see ammonia levels not conforming. One day the tank processes 1 ppm, the next 2 and then none. This again is not really possible on the face of it. I see nothing to indicate anything is causing bacteria to die off. If a tank can process 2 ppm of ammonia on Monday, it should be able to the same or more on Tuesday, Wednesday etc. etc. But your ammonia results show it changing at different rates or not changing at all- its almost random. And then there is your report from between  may 25 and 27.
 
One the 25th and 26th you reported ammonia unchanged at 1 ppm. After the test at 1 ppm on the 26th, you did a 25% water change and this should result in an ammonia level of .875 ppm (I included the effect of your tap having .5 ppm of ammonia). Your store put it at .5 however. Something is off here. When you returned from the store you reported adding the snack dose (incidentally this is Dose #3 not #2 as you stated). The next day (27th) you tested ammonia at 1.5 ppm. If your testing was accurate it should have been lower if you have ammonia bacs at work and if the store was right it should have been even lower. And if for some reason your tank was no longer processing ammonia, then you should have tested close to 2 ppm.
 
And this brings me to the pH issues. The cycle itself causes pH to drop over time, not rise. How much this might be depends on several factors (especially regular water changes which help prevent this potential problem), but the cause is the nitrate. So why is your pH rising? Either your substrate or decor is the cause or else its testing error. This can mean human error or else other things in the water which interfere with the test results.
 
The pH kits overlap in the middle. The regular kit goes up to 7.6 and the high range kit goes down to 7.4. It doesn't matter which of the two kits one starts out using to test. But if you hit 7.6 on the regular kit, then you need to use the high range kit to determine if the pH is 7.6 or if it is higher. The reverse applies if you start with the high range kit. If you test at 7.4, then retest using the regular kit. Once you know which kit to use, the only reason to use the other one is when the results are at the top or bottom of the range as I indicated.
 
All in all your reported numbers simply do not comport with what should have happened. This still leaves me with not being able to get a handleon what is going on based on the results. This brings me back to either testing error or else missing information.
 
One last note on testing for nitrate during cycling. The way the nitrate kits works is it first converts the nitrate to nitrite and then it measures that. This is fine except when one is cycling and had nitrite in a tank. Normally one subtracts the nitrite reading from the nitrate reading to arrive at the actual nitrate level.
 
At this point in time I would do nothing until we know your tap parameters for certain as well as what type of substrate and rocks you have. I would not add any more ammonia until we get a handle on what is going on and I would not change more water. Once this has been determined, the proper way to proceed is to do a reset. This involves a massive water change to get the ammonia and nitrite numbers as close to 0 as possible. Test fairly soon after you refill the tank and let the filter run to mix the water (about 30 minutes). Then we wait a day for the dechlor to dissipate and we will add ammonia again. Most dechlors which detoxify ammonia will give false ammonia readings in the 24 hours following dosing. Some brands will still effect ammonia levels for longer. So we need to know what dechlor you use. Also do you use any other additives?
 
The one thing I can tell you here for sure is
 

 

 

[Stormer]

 I hope the attachment comes through.   This is the results from my tank tonight taken outside in natural light.   I do find matching the colors very hard to the little square so my numbers could be off because I have been making my best guess.    
 
The 2nd photo is results from my tap water minus the PH which I am letting sit overnight.  
 
I think the Ammonia in the first photo is between 2 ppm and 1 ppm
Nitrite is clearly 0
PH:   it is a light brownish so 8 ppm
Nitrate:  between 0-5 ppm
 
 

 

[Stormer]

One more photo of the tank results standing up against a white background.  The colors are a little better.   I only have regular aquarium gravel bought at my local petstore and all the decorations came from there as well.  I am at a loss as what to do next and am getting frustrated.   
 
I did not follow the fishless cycle instructions on this forum because I did not see it until after I had already started doing another person's instructions.  I'm sure it would have been less of a headache if I would have seen these directions first.   
 
Oh, and I use Prime as my dechlor and I don't put anything else in the tank.