Is It Necessary

[royboy]

First of all I must say that have had some very useful tips from the experienced members of this Webb, so I don't wan't to sound ungrateful, for the advice I was given, but my question is....
I have been reading quite a few posts in this section of people having terrible trouble cycling tanks using ammonia as a cycling agent,Is this method really necessary? I am not suggesting for one moment that it should not be done. But when I started my tank (13 gallon) I set it up and let it run (heater filter e.t.c) for one week, after the week being impatient I went and got six neons. With the help of water testing kits I have been able to keep tabs on the tank water quality, and have been doing water changes as required. Admittedly this has been time consuming but as a necessary part of the hobby not a chore. My tank has been in operation now since 28th November, the fish have been in the tank since 4th Dec,
(23 days)and I haven't lost a single fish. and the only real problem I encountered during this time was cloudy water.
Now my question is this, What I have done has been quite simple,I have not had to put ammonia in my tank, and I have been able to watch fish in my tank during the cycling period. Through my own experience, would I be wrong in advising a beginner to do as I have done when cycling a fish tank? if so why?,

 

[Tolak]

What fishless cycling does is spares the fish from living in a polluted, toxic environment while the tank cycles. What you did is more or less the old way of cycling a tank, by letting a few hardy fish produce the ammonia to cycle the tank. I did it years ago, it's the original method.

The problem with cycling with fish is that it is difficult to control the levels of ammonia, and nitrites when they spike. They get too high, you get dead fish. This can be very discourging, especially to a beginner. With fishless cycling, you can go through your ammonia spike and nitrite spike without the fear of losing any fish, and start out stocking the tank with fish that otherwise would be less likely to survive the cycling process.

Tolak

 

[thecichlidaddict]

Well I only cycle my tanks with the fish I plan to keep. The important thing for beginners, and perhaps others as well, to understand is that if you cycle with your fish then the tank must be stocked very gradually. This can take almost as much patience as fishless cycling. Fishless cycling is best if you want to stock many fish at once, and is not for everyone. If you do fishless cycle, follow a reliable and proven method.

 

[smb]

Because a fish *lived* through a cycle does not mean it worked. Their gills were being burned through the whole process and you now have fish that aren't as healthy and won't live as long as they previously would have.

I'm curious as to why you only waited a week when trying the fishless cycling method?

 

[wuvmybetta]

Because a fish *lived* through a cycle does not mean it worked. Their gills were being burned through the whole process and you now have fish that aren't as healthy and won't live as long as they previously would have.

I'm curious as to why you only waited a week when trying the fishless cycling method?

Excellent points Jeff


I'm curious if you dumped out the ammonia polluted water and started with fresh when you added the neons

 

[Sondan]

I am one of the few NON cyclers here. BUT as CA said I very gradually add fish. As SMB said though it is possible to be hurting the fish but only by inspecting the gills of the fish AND knowing what you are looking for can you say it is true or not. The other thing is about not cycling is that yes if you add a lot of fish to a brand new tank you can have spikes but here is where I disagree with some people. One fish, a small one like a guppy, in a 20 gallon tank (in my opinion only) is not going to produce waste so fast that bacteria can't grow to help take care of it. This is all leading to the common sense thing here.....if you have not cycled a tank then don't load it up right away with fish.
Signed,
Sondan

 

[my_fallen_angel]

think about the poor fish you have put in there.
They will not end up living as long as thy should due the water not having any Beneficial bacteria in the tank.
They would have been poisoned.

 

[Sinuhe]

I have never had a measurable ammonia spike when cycling with fish, and haven't lost fish, either. Fish cycling doesn't necessarily put fish under a lot of fish if you keep a close eye on the water parameters and fish behaviour, and especially if you start with only one or two small fish and live plants.

 

[royboy]

I did not set out to do a fish less cycle, I set up my tank for a week to settle the filter heater e.t.c,... I then asked for advice from this Webb of how to continue (i.e fish less cycle). I then went to my local f.s for some ammonia and he talked me out of doing it ,saying that it was unnecessary, He told me the best way was to put in a few tetras, and to keep my eye on the water pollutants, The thought of taking home fish to put in my tank swayed me.... hence the reason for my question!

 

[Cian McLiam]

Tetras are such a bad choice for cycling. I have a suspicion that the guy in the LFS was thinking:
Ammonia = no money for me
Tetras = money plus more fish when they die

If you must cycle with fish, Danios and white cloud mountian minnows are both very hardy.

The problem with this is that even if you then remove these fish, your tank can only support the dainos that cycled the tank. That means if you add say an Oscar, the bacteria that grew during the initial cycle will not be in any way sufficient to process the waste from an Oscar.

There is a biological balance, even a tank that is years old will only support the fish that are in it, every time a new fish is added more bacteria need to grow to process the extra waste. In the mean time there is detectable ammonia in the water.

Cycling with ammonia means you can prepare for a heavy bio-load straight away.

Ask your LFS what he thinks about this.


Ken

 

[Sinuhe]

I'd imagine that even if you do a fishless cycle, start with some fish, and the add more later, the tank will also go into a new cycle, just like adding more fish to tank that was cycled with fish originally? I don't imagine the large amount of nitrifying bacteria produced by the added ammonia will stay unless there is constant ammonia supply later to keep it up.

 

[nightlife20]

i did the fishfood cycle...


everyother day add fish food... after 5 days test water 6h day add more fish food

after testeing for ammonia ect add another couple of flakes if it isnt traced... then do the same...


if it is detected i did a small water change.. less than 5% left it for a day then tested again when it tested clear i added more fishfood left it for two days and tested again... i was shocked by the nitrite spike and did a 10% water change.. after another day i tested again an everythin was fine.. so i took a sample down to my lfs they tested it said everything was ok (my nitrates at this point was 20)

so i added 2 green barbs and 4 tiger barbs... everythings been fine since... i do tests every 4 days and do a 5%-7% water change each day and i havnt had a spike since...


everything reads 0 apart from nitrate wich is 40 (partway through doin a water change as we speak)


Dawn xx
p.s i know my method seems a bit haphazord but it worked for me

 

[Cian McLiam]

You are exactly correct sinhue, you need to add the fish as soon as ammonia and nitrite readings both reach 0. There is no harm in having 'too much' bacteria in the filter, a balance will be reached in due course.

Ken

 

[thecichlidaddict]

If you use few enough fish the ammonia spike will be so small that it will not even register in a typical LFS sold ammonia test. In addition it will cause no harm to the fish.

How few is few? That is the question. I go with about 1" of fish for every 15 gallons of water, and I feed very lightly for the first while. I only cycle with the actual fish I am going to keep - I do not believe in treating any living thing as disposable. Only cycle with white clouds, danios, or whatever fish is mentioned if you plan to keep them afterwards

Now, if you start your aquarium off with existing bacteria - used filter media in your filter works best, then the tank is not actually cycling so much as the existing bacteria that you have introduced will multiply or die off based on the fish load. This means you can add more fish, and add them at a quicker pace. This is a good method, and you can get the filter media from the fish store if you have no other source.

Then there is Bio-Spira, if you have access to it, which eliminates this whole arguement.

 

[mrV]

I'd imagine that even if you do a fishless cycle, start with some fish, and the add more later, the tank will also go into a new cycle, just like adding more fish to tank that was cycled with fish originally?

Because I don't know, do you speak finnish, I try to say it in english (or try to mumbling something..).

The key idea of fishless cycling is, that when doing it correctly you can add every fishes at the same time. And why is it good to add everyone at the same time? Less stress, tank is cycled and fishes find their own territories. When you add fishes with olders, those older fishes has captured their territories and defend these areas. New fishes need to find some free space and territories before they feel themselves safety. You can probably see many fights before everyone has own territories again.

When adding every fishes at the same time, everyone finds they own places easily and they don't need to defend the area (always you add more fishes).

Of course if you only keep some tetras that only swim from head to head and have no territories, they don't feel stress when you add more fishes. But if you keep e.g. ciclids pr plecos, you easily see how they defend their own territories/caves.