Iron to low tech is like Co2 is to high tech.

[Stan510]

I see lots of low tech versus hi while doing the dirted tank method for low tech and that makes it a tighter race. But they never dose Iron in the low tech. I'm sure with some hardy fish and consistent dosing low tech would close the gap even more. Both using advanced gro lights of course. Dosing iron though is so much easier than taking your empty Co2 bottles across town to a welders shop and all that it entails. Iron is really underrated for what it does in low tech.

 

[Byron]

If any low tech or natural planted tank actually needs iron, then it will certainly need the other nutrients (micro anyway). If one uses a comprehensive liquid, as I did, there is sufficient iron in balance with the other nutrients. Only the macros are low, because these are supplements and macros tend to be in most water (very soft water the exception). Iron is a heavy metal and thus toxic to all life forms, so it should not be dosed individually but in combo.

Edit. Should just add that CO2 (carbon) is a macro nutrient, and in a high tech system there is not much chance of sufficient carbon being present in balance with the mega light and daily fertilizer doses.

 

[Stan510]

Iron in high doses yes,is toxic..but my Dr wasn't worried!(for anemia)..Like I said,hardy fish and slowly learn what amount of iron accomplishes the goal. I think most tap waters are close enough on micro's and macro's..but Iron is always never in natural high enough amounts. Plus the food you feed,plus the decor, I'm now using some rock from a rockery that has iron in it as its so rusty looking. Nice craggy look too.
After the dirted tanks substrate has leached out or after the potting soil of the potted aquarium plant has dissolved...iron is there to boost what's left. Along with the fish poop!..the supply of that never ends.

btw, There is a iron test kit online for $13. I would order that.

 

[StevenF]

I think most tap waters are close enough on micro's and macro's..but Iron is always never in natural high enough amounts.

iron and manganese typically are not pressent in tap water (They are chemically very similar. Copper is typcally pressent due to extensive use of copper pip in homes and by utilities. Prior to copper pipes lead or zinc coated iron pipes were used and many brass fixtures had zinc in the alloy. So it was also pressent in the past in tap water but today it is not pressent in many fixtures or pipes and it may be deficient.in some places.. The final micro metals are mollybedum and Nickel and they are only needed in at concentration of 1 part per billion. I am guessing that most tap water has enough of these. Molybdenum and nickel are not reported in most water quality reports

The big issue with these nutrients is that they oxidies easily and if they combine with phosphate or molybdenum they become insoluble and are not available to plants.

 

[Stan510]

I've been adding a teaspoon per day (for the 240 gallon) the last few days to see what would happen. What a surprisaroo as Blueys Dad would say when the long thin leafy Hygrophila angustifolia just today started to show color at the base of the leaves. Had to go to Google images to see very few photos of them like that. Later I will take a pic and post.

 

[StevenF]

I've been adding a teaspoon per day (for the 240 gallon) the last few days to see what would happen. What a surprisaroo as Blueys Dad would say when the long thin leafy Hygrophila angustifolia just today started to show color at the base of the leaves. Had to go to Google images to see very few photos of them like that. Later I will take a pic and post.

A teaspoon of what?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

New copper pipes often leach more than old ones. Old pipes have a coating from years of hard water running through them. The coating of minerals keeps copper from contaminating the water.

We run our water a lot and never have it standing in the pipes. However, when we had to replace some pipes a couple of years back I had them use a non-copper alternative because my tap water can go into tanks directly and I do not use dechlor. We do have a bit of iron in our well water. However, I have a couple of tanks where I need to punch up the copper and some other trace elements. I have to do this in tanks heavily planted and then with a lot of shrimp and snails. But I switched to SeaChem equilibrium about a year ago as it provides more than iron and my experience dosing added iron was that it helped but did not solve the problem completely. I underdose it, however.

 

[StevenF]

Edit. Should just add that CO2 (carbon) is a macro nutrient, and in a high tech system there is not much chance of sufficient carbon being present in balance with the mega light and daily fertilizer doses.

When tom barr created the EI dosing methode he was using a micro known as CSM+B. Many people still are. it has 2 problems. it has about one days worth of Zinc and Iron EDTA is only stable at a PH of less than 6.5 and didn't last long. He had to dose it every other day to get it to work. He apparently also didn't know that nickel and chlorine were micro nutrients. Tap water often has enough chlorine and nickel.

Also when he was dosing macroshe apparently thought Nitrogen, potassium and phosphate were the only macros. He apparently didn't know that Calcium Magnesium, sulfur were also macros. Also I have found that excess iron can bind and precipitate with phosphate and become insoluble. So when he was dosing a NPK solution he was also adding calcium, magnesium and sulfur from his tap water. He had to dose once every other day to get that to work. I find it amazing he was able to he the excellent results with defieices Ca, P, Mg, S, Ni, Fe and Ni that he must have had.

So in short he only had a lot of N,K, Mn, Cu. Everything else was at very low levels in ihis tanks. In my experience if you have no deficiencies Dosing once a week works at moderate nutrient levels.

 

[StevenF]

New copper pipes often leach more than old ones. Old pipes have a coating from years of hard water running through them. The coating of minerals keeps copper from contaminating the water.

That can happen but it also depends on the chemistry of your water. My home is about 40 years old and when I measured my copper levels I found I have 50 PPB of copper leaching from the pipes. Thank God I never used it in my tank. but keep in mind that 50ppm of copper is still not a lot in one liter of water. The pipes will still probably look and work fine 50 years from now. Water utilities are required to monitor for copper contamination. The max allowed is about 1.3 PPM. And occasionally they do find homes with Cu level close to the limit. Most people probably have a Cu level of about 10 PPB. which is about the amount plants need, And yes if your fertilizer has no copper and there is no copper in your water you will have a copper deficiency. IT happened to me also.

But I switched to SeaChem equilibrium about a year ago as it provides more than iron and my experience dosing added iron was that it helped but did not solve the problem completely.

Equilibrium has iron sulfate probably lasts about 1 day in your water unless you have Acidic water or some other odd chemistry going on in your tank. Sometimes iron will combine with phosphate to form insoluble iron phosphate but if the chemistry is right some will revert back for short time to soluble iron and phosphate. Iron phosphate has been proposed as a farm fertilizer because it would last longer in the soil than potassium Phosphate. I don't know if any farms are currently using it. I did have a phosphate issue in my tank due to too much iron.

 

[Stan510]

Tom Barr's formula works because he's pumping Co2. Same as it works for everybody who runs high tech Co2, formula or not. Low tech rules change. Iron is like the Co2 in them. Something that makes improvement's in days after starting that routine. Not a long subtle change-lol.
It's why I now tell low techys that frequent water changes are bad in the low tech ways. It's too upsetting for water basics and tank stability. Lighting should always be more than standard though.
Just to add Im using EDTA Iron with zinc. Might have been what Barr was using all those years ago.

 

[Stan510]

Also,I have newish copper plumbing and then my wife boils water in an aluminum teapot. Something I meant to bring up to her a few times....

 

[DoubleDutch]

It might be cause I am Dutch but I've reread this thread again and again and still don't understand the statement you're making.
Is the use of CO2 compared with the use of iron ?

 

[StevenF]

Tom Barr's formula works because he's pumping Co2. Same as it works for everybody who runs high tech Co2, formula or not. Low tech rules change. Iron is like the Co2 in them. Something that makes improvement's in days after starting that routine. Not a long subtle change-lol.
It's why I now tell low techys that frequent water changes are bad in the low tech ways. It's too upsetting for water basics and tank stability. Lighting should always be more than standard though.
Just to add Im using EDTA Iron with zinc. Might have been what Barr was using all those years ago.

Actually many people have had problems with EI . Keep in mind on forums you often find the successful tank but often the unsuccessful tank owner five up and disappear from the forum or later they put everything they purchased on sale post (I saw this a number of times on other forums.

The big issue is PH it can make water sufficiently acidic to allow the use of Fe EDTA. However some people have water that makes it very difficult to achieve the PH. Others also have had problems with Ca, Mg, S, and other deficiencies and many don't know how to recognize them or how to correct it. The fertilizer CSM+B failed to grow anything in my tank. because of no zinc and my PH was wrong. Even if I fixed it by correcting the zinc deficiency and adding FE DTPA the result were poor and the hard green spot algae quickly
covered the glass due to Phosphate deficiency I had to dose 4 times more phosphate than normal and it wasn't enough to go for a week. And the weekly maintenance was very difficult.

Boiling tap water in an aluminum pot does nothing and is not dangerous to people. or fish.

 

[Stan510]

Aluminum is linked to Alzheimer's. Even the small amounts in deodorants is taking a risk.
The comparison of Co2- Iron is that iron can also give all the plants in low tech a boost. Not as dramatic with Co2 and all that fizzy water but I've found iron to be much more important for aquarium plant health than any other ingredient in low tech.
In fact low tech has different rules..NOT making large water changes is best. Leave that to the Co2 people who make huge changes weekly or even daily, and up to making systems that constantly add tap water.
This is what I've found. I will never go back to huge weekly water changes as long as I have large amounts of plants- including the Syngonium that loves EDTA iron.

 

[StevenF]

Aluminum is linked to Alzheimer's. Even the small amounts in deodorants is taking a risk.

Aluminum is one of the most abundant elements on earth. Everyone has aluminum in there body as well as many other toxic element such as mercury aand uranium.

Early on it was looked at but that research didn't lead to anything. Today the The CDC listed risk factors are high blood pressure, obesity, Diabetes.
Depression, cigarette smoking, hearing loss, binge drinking.

You keep jumping onto single item issues. First it was potassium, Second was iron now CO2. there are15 elements plant need to grow other than oxygen and hydrogen (which come from water). Any one of those 15 can determine if a planted tank is successful or unsuccessful. I had the same problem but quickly went through 7 elements and at that point I still had issues. So I went all the way and looked at all the 15. And only then did I have success. Note there is one thing I have learned:

If your fertilizer doesn't have it and you are not adding it to your water that element has the highest probability of being deficient.

Low tech and high tach have the same goal: insuring plants have everything they need to grow. People with low tech tanks tend to use different methods to achieve the same result as those with high tech tanks. And of corse there is a middle ground that can use a blend of both high and low tech methods. And all of this depends on what is in your tap water, how you maintain the tank how big the tank is, and how you stock it.