Iron Deficiency despite Flourite & Flourish?

[Colin_BC]

My 30G is heavily planted, has 14KG of Flourite for substrate, has 184W or 6WPG of light, and a Nutrafin Natural CO2 System. Originally I fed weekly with 1mL Flourish (bottle recommends 1-2mL per 50G once a week). I started to get an algae problem here on the plants. My limnophilia in particular, as well as most my other plants became covered in a brown algae. I've since purchased Phosphate and Iron test kits, as well as added 4 oto's that are doing a great job combined with my true siamensese and royal pleco. My Phosphates were off the charts while Iron was zero. I added 150G of PhosGuard in nylon sacks near my inlet and outlet of the filter, but it did no good (that the tests could measure ). I then moved the PhosGuard to my Eheim 2213 Canister filter. Within 2 days my tests became measurable and then dropped to 2.5mg/L from +5mG/L (highest test reads).

In reagrds to my Iron Problem, after testing a zero for chelated Iron, I added another 1mL of Flourish. I tested hours later and the next afternoon and it still read zero for Iron. I added another 1mL the afternoon of the second test and still no change. On the 3rd day I added 2mL and it still wouldn't register the Iron. That's (by the bottle) 4+ weeks recommended dose in 3 days, but Iron test show a big fat zero every time. I've tested the test-kit on a concentrated mix of water/flourish(3:1) and the iron tested off the charts. To nip this questio in the bud right away, no I didn't have any activated carbon in my filter. I added some a week ago or so to help remove some phosphates, but this was after everything above. Normally I don't bother with activated carbon and leave that up to the plants.

As I said before, i have 6WPG of light, but I'm thinking this isn't a case of too much light (as there is no such thing ), but more not enough of something else do to the high light. My guess is that because I have my own sun in my canopy and I use CO2 and am heavily planted that the recommended dose is general for people with a few plants only and moderate/low/average lighting. This being said, the doses I've been giving have been mere snacks for the plants, meanwhile the algae has been thriving on the abundance of phosphates the plants aren't processing due to lack of Iron.

As I said, this is my guess, based on thinkng how the plant processes must work with a BALANCE of light, CO2, and nutrients. I've upped the light, the CO2 was already there, but now the recommended dose isn't near enough. It was enough when I had 2WPG. I added about 3mL of Flourish 3 hours ago and just finished a test now, and on a scale of 0mg/L - 1.0mg/L, I'm now testing the highest I have yet in at a result of in between 0 - 0.1mg/L, but closer to zero still...

Any thoughts on cause of the problem and a solution? Perhaps siwtching to a daily plant food? Flourish is what I was recommended originally when I had 2WPG. Perhaps I need something stronger than this now with all that light?

Any help is appreciated, as always!

Here is a pic of my tank to give you an idea of the planting. The back is heavily planted. The front has readcently had some plants culled for their own good, however you can see the 6 clumps of glossostigma I just added today. I have to pay a close watch to the Iron now with this one...
The plant on the far back right and left side is trimmed 1/2 about every week, the rest don't really grow very fast anymore since the light increase, but they root like mad in the substrate.

Colin

 

[Silly me]

This where I like the PMDD idea over comercial products. I add FeCl in my tank, but lots more then recomended I get mine in a solution of 3mgFeCl in a 20ml bottle, adding 20 drops ( 1mL ) to my tank my test kit display a reading of 0ppm ( not possible should be 0.15ppm ) but adding 1.5ml ( 30 drops ) I get a reading of 0.05 – 0.075ppm ( the lowest I can see on my test kit )

Meaning I have to add a total of 2mL that will give me 0.25 – 0.3ppm in a non planted tank but only gives me a 0.1 – 0.15ppm in my tank.. but at the end of the week just before a water change the reading is zero again..

If you buy a good fertilizer they should have a index of what is in the stuff so you know that to add to fit your tank..

 

[sinistral]

First of all, very lovely looking tank, Colin; I can't wait to see what it will look like when the glossostigma has grown in.

I'm a bit confused by something: Are your plants experiencing symptoms of iron deficiency? Or is it mainly that you feel the tank is out of balance given the algae problem and the lack of measurable iron? If there are no signs of iron deficiency, then I might suggest that revisiting the initial hypothesis about iron being the problem may be fruitful. Is the fluorite substrate covered by a gravel layer (I can't quite tell from the photo)? If so, the rooted plants may be getting the iron they need from the substrate despite a reading of zero, and adding iron as a trace nutrient may be "feeding the algae" so to speak. This might account for the lack of iron deficiency symptoms and a reading of zero. I am not altogether sure what one ought to be reading with a exposed/non-exposed fluorite substrate, if iron readily leeches into the water or not. I may try to get a test kit for iron today and test that out myself.

I am curious about what your nitrates are reading. If it's zero, obviously that's one issue, but if they are elevated that might be another place that algae has made inroads.

On the other hand, you may very well be correct that there is an iron deficit, or that your plants are barely getting sufficient iron to grow, which would in fact account for slow growth and rapid uptake of trace iron. I've never tried these, but you might consider the Flourish tabs, as they contain more iron than the soluble fertilizer and are accessible over a longer period. The ingredients and proportions for the tabs are different than the liquid; I don't know how to begin to go about predicting how that will affect things for you

I do believe, as a side note, that while it may not be possible to have too much light, that just like you mentioned having a high amount of light without enough "other stuff" may be the issue. You mentioned that many of the plants at the back of the aquarium don't grow as well anymore since you upped the lighting. Perhaps as the plants grow in more densely things will fall into a better balance. Is it possible that the one rapidly growing plant may be outcompeting other plants for nutrients?

 

[Bangin]

I just wanted to chime in to remind you that many iron tests are not reliable. If you want a reliable test kit, you'll end up paying $100.00 for one!

Good luck!

 

[Bol]

I'll agree with sinistral and Bangin, ... you're probably barking up the wrong tree focusing on iron at this point, if your major problem is just algae. If that's the case, here are my suggestions:

Concern 1: Your phosphates are still too high.

Although it's now better than before, your phosphate levels are still too high. At the least, your N ratio is probably too low (I'm guessing, with your given light level and your mention of nitrates at 5 ppm in your last thread). With phosphates of 2.5 ppm, you'd want nitrates at about 35 ppm (some would say 58 ppm) for proper N balance.

Consider dosing nitrates as a first step in curing your algae problem. For info, some brands of commercial Stump Remover are pure KNO3 -- such as Spectracide, I'm pretty sure, but read the label.

Concern 2: You may not have enough CO2

What is the KH of your tank water? I may have missed it, but I don't think you've mentioned your water's KH; although, if I remember correctly, the pH is around 7.0 -- which means you'd only have a recommended CO2 concentration if your KH is between (roughly) 7 and 10 degrees.

From everything I've seen and read, a Nutrafin (or DIY, for that matter) system probably doesn't produce enough CO2 to keep your CO2 concentration in the 20-30ppm range.

 

[Bangin]

Consider dosing nitrates as a first step in curing your algae problem. For info, some brands of commercial Stump Remover are pure KNO3 -- such as Spectracide, I'm pretty sure, but read the label.

I use Green Light Stump Remover. It's available at Lowes. Green Light is one of the few commercial stump removers that's been verified as pure KNO3.

(I dose nitrates and try to keep them at 10ppm. It goes fast!)

 

[Colin_BC]

I'll do a quick reply here before I test everything for you, BOL. Thanks for chiming in all!

Yes, I was prematurely speculating Iron due to the lack of plant growth and the algae. Thinking clearer now, I was kind of blindly pointing my finger in Iron's general direction. my other reason for this, as mentioned, was the zero on the Fe test. I do accept, however, that the Hagen Iron Test Kit may no be the most reliable. Insufficient CO2 had crossed my mind a few times, since the package even said "For Aquarium's up to 20G."

Bol, am I reading that right? Increase the nitrates to 35ppm? If that is correct, than I think I should also mention that between 10-20ppm is where my nitrates typically were before upping the light from 2WPG to 4WPG to 6WPG.

I'll go test now with every kit I have. On another quick note, my PhosGuard I believe may have taken in all the PO4 that it can, so I'll probably replace it with fresh PhosGuard. the container recommends that the full container will treat 70G, but overtreating is not recommended. Would you recommend half the container for my 30G, or just toss the whole thing in my cannister filter?

Colin

 

[Colin_BC]

Here's the test results:

pH = 7.25
GH = <40ppm
KH = <50ppm
Phosphate = 2.5ppm
Nitrate = 5ppm
Ammonia = 0.1ppm
Iron = 0
(All Hagen Test kit's)

I added a bit of pH down, so I expect a 7.0 pH tomorrow AM, but the Iron is back to zero when I added 3-4 mL of flourish last night...

Colin

 

[Bangin]

Your phosphate:nitrate ratio is the problem. The phosphates are entirely too high for the low nitrates. Nitrates should be at 10, at the least. I've read that 10:1(2) nitrates to phosphates is the way to go. Perhaps that ph down has phosphates which is why they're so high.

That's definitely the reason for your algae problem.

 

[Colin_BC]

OK, so the nitrates should be higher...I'll replace my phosguard today and make sure there is no carbon in the filter. A while back I put 1x AquaClear 200 Carbon Pack in the filter to help with the phosphates. I know my nitrates have lowered significantly since then which I thougfht (at the time) that was a good thing. Oh yeah, my Iron was reading zero before the carbon was added. Once the carbon was in I dodn't bother adding flourish again until a week and a half later.

Does anyone have anymore thoughts on the Iron problem (if it is)? If I didn't already mention it, I have 14kg pure Flourite (2 bags) for substrate in my 30G.

Just an FYI, the plant I have that grows like a week is Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides). I just found out the name for sure.

Colin

 

[Colin_BC]

Just for the hell of it, here's a pic of my tank at night. I just figured out how to do this on my new digi so you can see things without the flash...

Colin

 

[Silly me]

Hi Colin here is a qoute from Karen, from The Krib.


I have never tested to make sure I have specific levels of
iron in the water, I think that specific iron levels are irrelevant.
Plants can and do store more iron than they need for growth. Therefore,
if there is _any_ measurable iron in the water, you are meeting the iron
needs of your plants.


It really doesnt look like a iron deficiency, I would call it growing pains..

The more I am looking into iron and other deficiencys, I changed my oppinion about my own tank.

If you have a well to heavy planted tank and you have a nitrate reading try adding K, if this doent drop the nitrate reading add (P) phosphorus. not much and look, then you know what is your deficiency

 

[Colin_BC]

Alright, so Iron isn't the culprit. But my balance isn't correct right now with my phosphates being at 2.5mg/L and my Nitrates at 5mg/L. So would I be best advised to lower the phosphates with a fresh replacement of PhosGuard for my canister filter, or raise the Nitrates as suggested before? It seems to me that the phosphates that I should be targeting, but I want to check with a few of you first.

As well, in regards to my CO2, a real unit is out of my pricerange right now, but an additional Nutrafin Natural CO2 system isn't. Would this be advisable? I'm really leaning towards it since I upped my lights...

Colin

 

[Silly me]

have you added potassium (K) to the tank, not KNo3 but something like K2SO4

Potassium bromide, KBr, is extensively used in the manufacture of photographic plates, films, and papers.
· Potassium chlorate, KClO3, is a powerful oxidizing agent. It is used in explosives, matches, weedkillers, fireworks, and disinfectant.
· Potassium chloride, KCl, is the most abundant of potassium compounds. It is perhaps best known as a no-sodium table salt substitute. It is also an ingredient in many chemical fertilizers and is used in the manufacture of other chemicals.
· Potassium hydroxide, KOH, is often called caustic potash. It is used in the manufacture of soaps and detergents. It is a good drain cleanser because it combines with grease (that clog drains) to form water soluble soaps.
· Potassium carbonate, K2CO3, is used in the laboratory as a drying agent and industrially in the manufacture of soft soap, hard glass.
· Potassium iodide, KI, is used in medicine, particularly in the treatment of goitre resulting from iodine deficiency.
· Potassium nitrate, KNO3, is used in chemical fertilizers, in gunpowder and match heads.
· Potassium permanganate, KMnO4, is a purple solid soluble in water. It is used in volumetric analysis as an oxidizing agent. It is also used as a bactericide and a disinfectant.
· Potassium sulfate, K2SO4, is used as a fertilizer, particularly for tobacco plants, and in the chemical industry in the preparation of alums.
· Potassium superoxide, K2O, is used in the respiratory equipment because it efficiently generates fresh oxygen while removing carbon dioxide.
· Potash A generic and commercial name for naturally occurring potassium salts. Its name is derived from pot ashes denoting the ancient method of leaching wood ashes for their potassium carbonate content and concentrating the extract in iron pots.


The three main things needed for plant growth is N : P : K , if your missing any of these there will be very little to no growth , and the plant will be unable to use any if the other elements in the water, like CO2 , Fe,,, bla bla bla.. Normaly if there is lots of Phosphorus (P) add some Potassium nitrate (KNO3) this will enable the plants use the extra Phosphorus (P), but if there is lots of both phosphorus (P) and nitrate (N), you might need some potassium (K)
the higher the rate of growth and the more NPK is used in the water, the higher the need for iron (Fe), manganese (Mn), copper (Cu), zinc (Zn), molybdenum (Mo), cobalt (Co), boron ( B ) sulfur (S), calcium (Ca), and magnesium (Mg) is..

If this is not making any sense please PM me..

http/www.aquabotanic.com/wp101.htm
http/www.aquabotanic.com/potassium.html
http/www.aquabotanic.com/sfintro.htm
http/www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/k.html
http/www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/s...rate-jamie.html

Edit : my element symbols turned into smilies

 

[Colin_BC]

Makes sense to me Silly Me... I understand the N-P-K ratio's well as well MicroNutrients, I'm just still working on translating it to the aquarium. Where I am confused is I thought 2.5mg/L for PO4 is high compared to (where I think) I want it. I understand to improve the balance and consumption of the PO4, you must add something like KNO3 or K2SO4, but my question here is should I be settling for the higher levels and trying to achieve a balance there, or should I lower the PO4 to a more acceptable level and work with the lower balance of nutes? My understanding with most plants is thet Less is often More (better too little than too much).

I'm thinking that really, the route you mention of adding to maintain balance probably should be the way I should go given my insane light and tons 'o' plants. I just want to clarify to be safe before I do anything more. Thanks!

Colin