Ill Goldfish!

[jakester]

Hi I am quite new to pond fish. I have a 150 gallon rectangular pond with 6 Goldfish of different varieties. Yesterday I tested the water the nitrite was a little high so I performed a 50% water change after this the results were perfect. All but 2 of the fish seemed absolutly fine swimming together eating well. But two of the Goldfish have the following symptons:

Torn fins
Breathing fast
Hanging at the suface
Clamped fins
Pale patches on the skin
Trying and failing to eat
Hiding in the plants near the surface

I am really quite worried as these were the first 2 fish I put in the pond they're about 3 inches long and looked pretty healthy at first but they have suddenly got worse!

Thanks Jakester.

 

[GoldLenny]

Hi Jakester,

Let's get the bad news over with first. A 150G pond will not be big enough for 6 goldfish as they mature. If they are under 4" each right now, they will be OK but depending on the species and presuming they are all long-bodied varieties, they will grow to 12" - 24" each. They need a minimum of 50G each for the smaller ones and 200G for the larger ones. And that's if you have adequate filtration. In an unfiltered pond, you need even more water volume per fish and sufficient numbers of plants.

How long has your pond been set up? Since you are getting a nitrite reading, it means your pond does not have a stabile nitrogen cycle happening in the pond. Either the pond is new or you overcleaned the filter system which is where a lot of the nitrifying bacteria reside but they also live on all other surface areas. Since your pond is in the middle of cycling, either a full blown or mini cycle, add a teaspoon of salt (mixed well in a gallon of water) to the pond. The salt will protect against nitrite poisoning (brown blood disorder) but you still need to constantly test the water to make sure everything esle is OK.

What are your actual test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, GH and temperature. If you don't have all of these, give us whatever you have. Whenever your fish act strange or sick, you should run a full battery of tests first, then do up to a 25% PWC. Most issues have to do with water quality.

Your ammonia and nitrites should ALWAYS be 0.0ppm. Anything above 0.0ppm means you have a problem with your nitrogen cycle. Nitrates are the end product of the N-cycle and they can be kept low with partial water changes or the addition of more plants. Plants use nitrogenous compounds as one of their foods.

Nearly all of the symptoms you listed can be attributed to poor water quality so it is good that you did a 50% PWC but in the future, try to stick with 25% PWC's except in an emergency as larger changes can change the water chemistry/temperature too much, too fast, and cause shock issues to the fish. pH shock can kill a fish very quickly.

I'm not positive but you imply that you had 2 fish and it seems you added 4 more at some point. Give us more history on when the pond was set up, how long ago you added the first 2 and then the next 4. Did you quarantine the 4 fish before adding them?

Another thing that can cause many of the symptoms that you are having are gill flukes which are common in goldfish. If your problems do not resolve with improving the water quality, you may need to dose the pond with praziquantel which is the best treatment available for gill flukes and does not harm plants or the biofilter of the pond.

 

[jakester]

Hi Jakester,

Let's get the bad news over with first. A 150G pond will not be big enough for 6 goldfish as they mature. If they are under 4" each right now, they will be OK but depending on the species and presuming they are all long-bodied varieties, they will grow to 12" - 24" each. They need a minimum of 50G each for the smaller ones and 200G for the larger ones. And that's if you have adequate filtration. In an unfiltered pond, you need even more water volume per fish and sufficient numbers of plants.

How long has your pond been set up? Since you are getting a nitrite reading, it means your pond does not have a stabile nitrogen cycle happening in the pond. Either the pond is new or you overcleaned the filter system which is where a lot of the nitrifying bacteria reside but they also live on all other surface areas. Since your pond is in the middle of cycling, either a full blown or mini cycle, add a teaspoon of salt (mixed well in a gallon of water) to the pond. The salt will protect against nitrite poisoning (brown blood disorder) but you still need to constantly test the water to make sure everything esle is OK.

What are your actual test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, GH and temperature. If you don't have all of these, give us whatever you have. Whenever your fish act strange or sick, you should run a full battery of tests first, then do up to a 25% PWC. Most issues have to do with water quality.

Your ammonia and nitrites should ALWAYS be 0.0ppm. Anything above 0.0ppm means you have a problem with your nitrogen cycle. Nitrates are the end product of the N-cycle and they can be kept low with partial water changes or the addition of more plants. Plants use nitrogenous compounds as one of their foods.

Nearly all of the symptoms you listed can be attributed to poor water quality so it is good that you did a 50% PWC but in the future, try to stick with 25% PWC's except in an emergency as larger changes can change the water chemistry/temperature too much, too fast, and cause shock issues to the fish. pH shock can kill a fish very quickly.

I'm not positive but you imply that you had 2 fish and it seems you added 4 more at some point. Give us more history on when the pond was set up, how long ago you added the first 2 and then the next 4. Did you quarantine the 4 fish before adding them?

Another thing that can cause many of the symptoms that you are having are gill flukes which are common in goldfish. If your problems do not resolve with improving the water quality, you may need to dose the pond with praziquantel which is the best treatment available for gill flukes and does not harm plants or the biofilter of the pond.

Hi, thanks for your reply. For a start don't people keep goldfish in tanks far smaller than my pond ? I added three Goldfish as a start. Within the week one went missing and is now presumed dead( I searched every where we think a heron must have got him I have now put a net over the pond). The next week we bought 4 more goldfish and the 4 we have bought most recently are the healthiest. After the water change the ammonia was 0 the nirtite was 0 and before the water change the nitrate was 10. The Ph is 8 but that is what all my fish live in perfectly happily including cardinals(suprisingly)! I did not quarantine them as I had nothing suitable to use. Most of the fish are about 2-3 inches( including tail) and one of them is about 4-5.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Is the pond filtered at all? True people keep goldfish in tanks smaller than your pond, but a ponds enviroment is much different from an aquariums. How deep is the pond? What part of the world do you live in/what is your climate like throughout the seasons?

In ponds, fluctuations in temp is a lot more vast during night and day, winter and summer etc. The smaller the pond, the greater these fluctations in temp will be and the more stressful it will be for the fish.

The gasping/rapid breathing and hanging near the surface could indicate either a lack of oxygen in the pond or parasites affecting the gills of the fish like gill flukes. The pale patches on the fish could indicate an external parasite like velvet/slime or a fungal/bacterial infection like columnaris. I would advise treating the fish with an anti velvet and slime med and something like Pimafix- however we need to find out more on your pond, as the conditions in the pond could have contributed to the fishes health problems.

 

[jakester]

Hi, thanks so much for your replys they're much appreciated! The deepest area of the pond is around 27 inches, I am in south west England and It can get quite warm in the summer, I don't think our winters would be harsh enough for a complete freeze. The pond is filtered with a Fish mate compact filter. and I use the bell head on my blagdon pond pump. I don't think the pale patches are fungal. I have done what you said and added the salt, I tested the nitrite again and that was 0.

Thanks Jakester.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hi, thanks so much for your replys they're much appreciated! The deepest area of the pond is around 27 inches, I am in south west England and It can get quite warm in the summer, I don't think our winters would be harsh enough for a complete freeze. The pond is filtered with a Fish mate compact filter. and I use the bell head on my blagdon pond pump. I don't think the pale patches are fungal. I have done what you said and added the salt, I tested the nitrite again and that was 0.

Thanks Jakester.

The pond won't freeze thick, but it will freeze at various points during the winter (my mother also lives in the south west of england and her ponds have frozen as much as 3inch thick ice during some winters).
Your pond is on the shallow side- generally speaking, it is advised you have at least 3ft deep for a goldfish pond and 4ft deep for a koi pond. The shallower a pond is the less protected it will be against things like wind chill and cold falling temps during winter time. At under 3ft deep, you will risk the pond getting too cold during the winter for the fish, and may even risk losing the fish during harsher winters.

In a deeper pond, because the temps are more stable, the fish will be more likely to have a problem-free hibernation during the winter.
In ponds which are too shallow, during the winter if there is a short warming period, the fish can be fooled into thinking spring is coming, and come out of their dormant state, only to then realise that it is still winter and it is just a short warming period they are experiencing followed by the usual harsh cold winter weather. Having to go into and then out and then back into hibernation during the winter can be a particularly stressful buisness for fish like goldfish as they loose a lot of body fats doing this, in bad cases the goldfish may not even make it through the winter if they don't have enough body fats to see them through.
The other problem with the short warming periods is that things like parasites in the water become more active when the water is warm. Even if the fish stay in their dormant state during the wintertime, parasites in the water may become active in the shallow depths during short warming periods in the winter and take advantage of the fish while their imune systems are in their sleepy state, and overcome the goldfishs imune systems while they are still hibernating. The deeper the pond, the less likely issues like this are to happen.

I know digging ponds is a pain in the bum, but i would advise deepening the pond at some point whenever you can soon to at least 3ft deep. Making the pond deeper will have many benefets for the goldfishes health and well being .

Can you get any pics of the affected goldfish? That would help a great deal in accurately ID'ing what they have . Does what the fish have look anything like this;

http/www.fishjunkies.com/images/Columnaris2.jpg

http/network.bestfriends.org/data/news/2...606232034_t.jpg

?

 

[jakester]

Hi, thanks for your reply, I don't think its fungus. Its just looks as if the fish is very weak and loosing its colour. We were going to dig to three foot deep but we came across a large pipe of some sort so we thought we better stop.

 

[sakaspuds]

Hi I am quite new to pond fish. I have a 150 gallon rectangular pond with 6 Goldfish of different varieties. Yesterday I tested the water the nitrite was a little high so I performed a 50% water change after this the results were perfect. All but 2 of the fish seemed absolutly fine swimming together eating well. But two of the Goldfish have the following symptons:

Torn fins w ould suggest finrot
Breathing fast would suggest lack of oxygen in the water
Hanging at the suface same as above
Clamped fins any fish that isnt happy will do this, its normally an early sign something is wrong
Pale patches on the skin this would suggest excessive slime coat
Trying and failing to eat
Hiding in the plants near the surface

i'd say you could keep those goldfish in there just fine, if you have the filtration and water changes to match, the thing about filtration isnt really to do with the size of the fish, its all to do with the amount of food you feed them, this makes waste that the filters have to breakdown, so feed very little, and feed the best quality food you can afford, good quality foods produce much less waste, as for 2 foot goldfish in a pond, good luck i've never seen one get anything near that size, however i would say that 150 gallons is not a good size for a pond, no matter how many fish are in it, so if you can start saving up for a bigger one, always go bigger than you need cos trust me you will buy more fish, or even move on to koi, now they do grow massive!!!

also if you have a biological part to your filter it might be worth while looking into a k1/k3 conversion, that is the best stuff on the market, some people have made there own using a container and an airstone, 30 litres of fluidised k1 can dissolve 100g of food a day!!

 

[GoldLenny]

Hi I am quite new to pond fish. I have a 150 gallon rectangular pond with 6 Goldfish of different varieties. Yesterday I tested the water the nitrite was a little high so I performed a 50% water change after this the results were perfect. All but 2 of the fish seemed absolutly fine swimming together eating well. But two of the Goldfish have the following symptons:

Torn fins w ould suggest finrot
Breathing fast would suggest lack of oxygen in the water
Hanging at the suface same as above
Clamped fins any fish that isnt happy will do this, its normally an early sign something is wrong
Pale patches on the skin this would suggest excessive slime coat
Trying and failing to eat
Hiding in the plants near the surface

i'd say you could keep those goldfish in there just fine, if you have the filtration and water changes to match, the thing about filtration isnt really to do with the size of the fish, its all to do with the amount of food you feed them, this makes waste that the filters have to breakdown, so feed very little, and feed the best quality food you can afford, good quality foods produce much less waste, as for 2 foot goldfish in a pond, good luck i've never seen one get anything near that size, however i would say that 150 gallons is not a good size for a pond, no matter how many fish are in it, so if you can start saving up for a bigger one, always go bigger than you need cos trust me you will buy more fish, or even move on to koi, now they do grow massive!!!

also if you have a biological part to your filter it might be worth while looking into a k1/k3 conversion, that is the best stuff on the market, some people have made there own using a container and an airstone, 30 litres of fluidised k1 can dissolve 100g of food a day!!

How can you say 6 goldfish in a 150G pond is OK without knowing what kind they are? What if they are common goldfish which should grow up to 24" long each? One common goldfish would not thrive in 150G mainly since it would not give the fish any swimming room. You may not have seen a 2' common goldfish because they are severely stunted due to being in an undersized pond or being underfed during their growth years.

Baby and juvenile goldfish need to eat lots of quality food to facilitate the growth they are supposed to have. Juvi's should eat 2%-3% of their body weight each day, split into several meals. Feeding anything less is intentionally starving/stunting the fish and will cause the fish long term health issues and an early death.

Once they reach full size, then 1% of body weight is the recommended daily food amount down in my area where it's warmer during the spring/summer months, but many sites recommend up to 3% as adults, depending on water temperature. Here is a good explanation with a "Long Answer" on feeding amount and schedule. http/www.texaskoi.com/Articles/you_might...eeding_your.htm

 

[sakaspuds]

just out of interest how many years does it take a common goldfish to grow to 2 feet? i'm a koi keeper and dont know a lot about goldies, and if you read my whole post you would have seen
''however i would say that 150 gallons is not a good size for a pond, no matter how many fish are in it, so if you can start saving up for a bigger one, always go bigger than you need ''

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

just out of interest how many years does it take a common goldfish to grow to 2 feet? i'm a koi keeper and dont know a lot about goldies, and if you read my whole post you would have seen
''however i would say that 150 gallons is not a good size for a pond, no matter how many fish are in it, so if you can start saving up for a bigger one, always go bigger than you need ''

Most common goldfish will grow to 12-15inches+ long, 20inch+ long ones are pretty uncommon as far as i am aware though- i've seen them around, but i think the goldfish needs more than just enough space right from when its a juvenile and a very regular supply of food to allow it to reach such lengths.
I adopted my largest common goldfish about a year ago and since then its grown from 3-4inches long to 9-10inches long during the time i've had it, i believe goldfish grow 1inch every 4months on average, although they may grow faster when very small/young, and slower when much larger/mature etc.
For keeping in aquariums, common goldfish need at least a 75gal tank, preferably at least a 100gal tank. When it comes to keeping them in ponds, personally i would opt for at least a 500gal pond of 3ft or more depth.