Ignore This Post

[-germ-]

Nothing...

 

[Maximumbob]

Sorry to be skeptical but I see 2 main problems with this.

1) Its not a controled test - its a personal account so many other variables will come into play.

2) The basic science doesnt make sense to me. Erythromicin is an anti-biotic (its kills bacteria) Iridovirus is a virus... erythromicin doesnt/cant/will not do anything to a virus. The only way it could be working is if the virus made the fish suceptible to an internal bacterial infection which the erythromicin is effective against. Maybe if we found a way to give zovirax to fish.. maybe that would work

 

[Biulu]

Did the sores completely disappear? Did the gourami have pimple like sores or not? I am very interested since I am currently treating my gourami for an ulcer

 

[johnbee]

I am very interested as well. My fish isn't lying on the bottom but he has a sore that is getting worse. There's a pic on my post in the emergency section.


http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=187717

 

[Jozlyn]

Did the sores completely disappear? Did the gourami have pimple like sores or not? I am very interested since I am currently treating my gourami for an ulcer

What does the ulcer look like? What are you treating it with?

 

[nmonks]

Please note that outside the US, antibiotics are (quite rightly) prescription-only. Although some fishkeepers trade them in the UK, doing so is illegal. Use of antibiotics by anyone who isn't an MD or veterinarian should be very strongly discouraged.

The problems with drug resistance are gigantic, and every time someone uses antibiotics without positively identifying the disease and drawing on expert knowledge of drug treatment, they are driving one more nail into the coffin of human and animal healthcare. The situations with some diseases, such as TB, are becoming critical because people have used such drugs carelessly, in particular deciding their own dosages and when to stop taking them instead of following medical advice.

I have no idea why antibiotics are freely available in the US. But elsewhere, aquarists should always seek veterinarian advice if they want to use antibiotics on their fish. Not only is that better for scientific and healthcare planning reasons, it is also the law.

Cheers, Neale

The Metronidazole/Praziquantel food plus erythromycin appears to be effective on this problem. He went from nearly dead to a continued healthy life

 

[-germ-]

 

[johnbee]

"Open sores on your fish? This is one of two things, either Aeromonas bacteria, or Pseudomonas bacteria. How can you tell the difference? You can't. These two pathogens create open sores on the fish that look identical in appearance. If you cannot make a slide from a scraping on the fish, then you will have to treat them with one or two different antibiotics. Aeromonas bacteria is the most widespread during spring and summer. We suggest using Oxytetracycline hydrochloride for this treatment. If you use this antibiotic for 7 days and no improvement is seen, try switching them over to Neomycin. Neomycin sulfate and Kanamycin sulfate are used to treat Pseudomonas bacteria."


Taken from: http/www.nationalfishpharm.com/koi_pond.html

More good info here: http/members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Bacteria.htm

 

[Maximumbob]

germ - i agree that something is better than nothing, and that individual case reports have their use - but we just need to take them we as something we cannot really base sound decisions upon. Raise awareness as to possible avenues of investigation yes.. but anything else you are on dodgy ground.

-----

I really feel that people vaunting antibiotics as the cure is not helping matters. This species is blighted enough with inbreeding and being fed antibiotics which has made them so vulnerable.

Its a bit like saying to the guys on the titanic.. this stuff's really good at getting the water marks out of your carpet. The carpet aint the problem.. its the chuffin great big hole in the side of the ship!!

I work with antibiotics everyday (with humans not fish though) and neomycin and oxytetracyline are not products I dispense without serious consideration.

A very smart man once told me... humans only are infected by 13 bacteria normally. And he is correct. However, if we are subjected to a chronic illness this number increases to 56. When we are run down, we pick up more infections... receptors normally closed are opened up to oportunistic bacteria etc.

I think the underlying problem with the gouramis is that a lot of them are suffering from a chronic viral illness which pre-disposes them to a myriad of other infections. We might be able to treat the symptoms but not the cause.

But in treating the symptoms, what costs do we incurr??? As the above poster states, antibiotic usage is strictly regulated in the UK - and for good reason. There is only 1 cause of anti-biotic resistance... and that is using antibiotics. Over time, all antibiotics will likely become increasingly ineffective. And when was the last time we discovered a new antibiotic family - probably over 20 years ago - we have refined existing ones and develeoped new strains but no new ones have been discovered.

All we will suceed in doing in repeatedly using antibiotics, is develop a species that cannot live without them. This is ultimately dooming the species to die. So what do we do... IMHO we trust to nature... let the fittest ones survive and breed.

Its not a happy bunny, all hug and love to the world sentiment - but thas how I see it.

My 2p anyways,

Max

ps. sry if this seems a little groucy.. but have had a trying day at work

 

[-germ-]

 

[nmonks]

I myself in principle do not agree with the overuse of antibiotics, but on a correct and well regulated course see no reason why they should not be used.

And who decides on a "correct and well regulated course". Are you a vet or an MD? If not, they you have no more idea about the "correct and well regulated course" of drug use than I do, i.e., none. This is the precise problem with tuberculosis, which is now seriously drug resistant. People *think* they know when to take the drugs and when to stop. They base that decision on how they feel and how much the drugs cost. But they actually have no idea at all, and the bacteria may not be making them sick but it is still inside them, and when they quit taking the drug, the more resitant bacteria have survived, and these go on to multiply. Each time this happens, the bacteria gets more and more resitant.

Especially in an emergency such as the applicable virus.

Antibiotics don't do anything for viruses. Zero. Nada. Zip. You may as well feed your fish bread-and-butter instead for all the good antibiotics will do.

In Britain where (apparently) antibiotics are not readily available for fish, this is not even an issue, unless obtained illegitimately, in which case i doubt any lecturing is going to prevent the fish keepers use of antibiotics.

Yes, there are always people willing to break the law. But in this case, they are actually making things worse for everyone else, by producing drug-resitant strains of the bacteria in question.

Many home-keepers ARE going to look for whatever answer is necessary, to deny that would be stupidity on anybodys' part. So i feel it is only fair to let them know of other situations, the surrounding information and some background knowledge.

Why tell people about medications that cannot legally use? In the USA there is a relaxed attitude to antibiotic use, and it really isn't up to me to pass judgement on that. But in the UK, Europe, Australia, and elsewhere the situation is crystal clear: if your fish has a bacterial infection and you need to use antibiotics, you have to contact a vet. There's nothing else to say, really.

Cheers, Neale

 

[-germ-]

 

[nmonks]

Germ --

Wasn't meant to be personal, so please don't take it that way. As I said, unless you're a vet or an MD, you and I are in same boat as far as knowing when to use antibiotics goes. So any criticism of your opinions is criticism of mine too, on this topic at least.

Saying "people should have all the information" is dangerous. Should there be DIY manuals on bomb making? On heart surgery? On the law? On espionage? There are lots of situations where knowledge comes with responsibility to use that knowledge properly. To recommend antibiotics -- outside of the US anyway -- is only responsible and appropriate if you have medical training. That's my point.

Can't imagine why you think you'll be banned. That's not how TFF works. If I misunderstood your position, I apologise.

Cheers, Neale

I'll keep my gob shut then, if you noticed my earlier post, i agreed with your comment about contacting the vet, not that i know anything, i am sticking up for my opinion that people SHOULD be provided with related info.
The only person who would be suitable for deciding the correct course of antibiotics would be the vet?
Should i have made that clear or was it not already obvious

No i don't know my fish from my elbow...
F'it i won't post, I THOUGHT THE INFO MIGHT BE APPRECIATED...
only trying to help
-germ- ip banned soon i guess.
Peas........

 

[-germ-]

Yeah an over reaction on my part i'm afraid.
Anyway the topic is dead now.
My post was easily mis-interpreted.
Maybe i should have made my opinion clearer or perhaps less nuanced; i have no knowledge on antibiotics, or much on fish for that matter. I personally would see a vet and i'd follow their advice. But people will find a solution (within the law or otherwise) and they may as well have as much info as possible. Its not an act of encouragment but an acknowledment that illegal obtainment of antibiotics will happen. In that case with or without them being responsible (i'd assume in this instance they are not) they should have as much direction as is available. I do understand that taking such a risk is a double edged sword but when the info is already openly available i don't see myself as backing irresponsible usage.
Perhaps naive, perhaps realistic?

I would always encourage someone in any serious position in relation to animal health to see a vet.

Anyway considering i took offence to people adding their opinions and info i'm being a hypocrite....
so ---zip---
Apologies to Neale
Peas....

 

[WILDER]

Antibiotics will do nothing on a virus there no cure.