If I were to use water direct from well.....

[thrujenseyes]

I'm going to try and give the short version of my long story:

I cycled a little 6 gallon Fluval Edge just over two years ago.
I *thought* my water was hard because I'd tested the tap which was coming up 7.5ph.

I stocked with 5 little male endlers. Tons of live plants.
Over time I kept losing and replacing fish.

I came here to try and find out why.

Turns out I don't really have hard water. I'm on a private well.
I'd tested direct from well it and turns out my well water is very soft with a KH of zero which means whatever comes out of my spigot (after running thru the contraptions filled with crushed coral) will eventually come back down because there is no buffer.

So because my water first runs thru a contraption with coral it changes the PH when it comes out of our spigots. But when I bypass this contraption and get straight from well these are my readings:

Direct from Well:
Tetra 6 in one test strips
PH: 6.2
KH: 0
Chlorine: 0
GH: 25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: possibly 10 but could be 0

with API Master Test Kit
PH: 6.0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
ammonia: 0

Ok, this brings me to now.
I'd been using tap water mixed with RO for my weekly water changes to keep my remaining endlers happy.
I'm down to two and thinking that I should no longer keep harder water fish (duh).

Just trying to plan what I should keep next. I do have two shrimp. One Amano and one Sunkist that seem more than thrilled in the water I have now and I would love to have a few different shrimp species but not sure if they'd be ok in such soft water?

My main question is this...
I was told (back when I discovered my Well water was so soft ...to NEVER use it directly as it could be even lower than 6 (but that's as low as the tests go).
Is there any way to test lower registers?!

And just incase anyone wonders what my tank readings are...
Mixing 50%Tap (that's gone thru the crushed coral that gets weaker as time passes and it will eventually need changed) mixed with 50%RO and only adding Flourish Comprehensive:
PH: 6.8-7.2
KH: 40
GH: 75-150
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
chlorine: 0
ammonia: 0

I'm confused as to what I should really be doing and what I should really be keeping.

Any suggestions?!?!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Turns out I don't really have hard water. I'm on a private well.
I'd tested direct from well it and turns out my well water is very soft with a KH of zero which means whatever comes out of my spigot (after running thru the contraptions filled with crushed coral) will eventually come back down because there is no buffer.

So because my water first runs thru a contraption with coral it changes the PH when it comes out of our spigots. But when I bypass this contraption and get straight from well these are my readings:

Direct from Well:
Tetra 6 in one test strips
PH: 6.2
KH: 0
Chlorine: 0
GH: 25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: possibly 10 but could be 0

with API Master Test Kit
PH: 6.0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
ammonia: 0

Ok, this brings me to now.
I'd been using tap water mixed with RO for my weekly water changes to keep my remaining endlers happy.
I'm down to two and thinking that I should no longer keep harder water fish (duh).

Just trying to plan what I should keep next. I do have two shrimp. One Amano and one Sunkist that seem more than thrilled in the water I have now and I would love to have a few different shrimp species but not sure if they'd be ok in such soft water?

My main question is this...
I was told (back when I discovered my Well water was so soft ...to NEVER use it directly as it could be even lower than 6 (but that's as low as the tests go).
Is there any way to test lower registers?!

And just incase anyone wonders what my tank readings are...
Mixing 50%Tap (that's gone thru the crushed coral that gets weaker as time passes and it will eventually need changed) mixed with 50%RO and only adding Flourish Comprehensive:
PH: 6.8-7.2
KH: 40
GH: 75-150
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
chlorine: 0
ammonia: 0

I'm confused as to what I should really be doing and what I should really be keeping.

Any suggestions?!?!

The crushed coral piece should be offering you some buffering, because kH is the stuff that does in fact, buffer the water. Crushed coral increases kH (carbonate hardness), given that crushed coral is calcium carbonate. So, I'd be curious as to what the readings on your tank are after a while in the tank. The buffering ability of the water would only be decreasing if the kH were to drop as well and then you'd deal with a pH crash.


How to test pH lower than 6.0 - the answer is MORE EXPENSIVE. There are pH sensors out there that measure the entire range from 1.0 to 14.0. An electronic pH sensor would give you the answer to the first question... what is the actual pH of my well water... and could be used to keep a closer eye on your tank with the bizarre 'crashing' going on due to the low kH value. This could be inserted in the water with an alarm to trigger and notify you when the pH starts to drop below a certain level. Eventually you'd see patterns in your pH and could use this information to keep a more consistent water for your fishies. A cheaper one could measure it whenever you wanted to and get a digital readout quickly and you'd have to keep a log for yourself.

I would think that mixing your direct well water and the water you run through the crushed coral would give you very consistent and SOFT water. Your endlers on the other hand would likely prefer harder water than even the water straight from the crushed coral machine. If your water in the 50/50 split is 40 ppm, you'll need to raise that significantly to get it in the range for the endlers. It would need to be about 5-6 times higher than that! And when keeping 'hard water' fish in a soft water environment, that's a serious problem.

Now, if on the other hand, your kH reading is in degrees of hardness, then you are a little over the hardness they prefer... Given the issues with your pH though, I'd assume that your hardness is the lower value (40 ppm) rather than the higher (40 degrees)... especially given the gH value, which would have to be in ppm for you not to be dealing with liquid rock!

 

[Byron]

I agree with most of post #2, but would just add that I had/have this same condition, source water that is basically zero GH/KH, and in connection with something else I was discussing this with Neale Monks and he said crushed coral is not a good buffering agent. It is rather unreliable. No more on chemistry, but to your question of suitable fish.

You see why we always advise selecting fish suited to your water; adjusting parameters is not usually a simple matter. If I were you, I would use the well water alone, and go with very soft water species.

I do not add anything to my tap water (except conditioner for the chlorine of course) and with one exception I let the pH do what it wants. I have 8 tanks, all with live plants including floaters, and varying fish loads. The pH which I test sporadically (like, every 2-3 or 4 months now, always before the weekly water changes) is always the same in the respective aquarium, so I know I have stable parameters which is what really matters. Some remain around 6.4, others are below 6 and even 5 (the Tetra test goes down to 5 and they are even yellower). I don't worry about this, as I have soft water fish that prefer it acidic, and if it is consistent it will be better than trying to raise it.

In one tank only I do "buffer" pH a bit, using about 3 tablespoons of aragonite in a mesh bag hanging in front of the filter return, and this tank remains around 6.6 (would be below 5 before this). So you could do this to keep the pH up a bit.

There are loads of fish species suited to very soft water. Forget any livebearers.

Byron.

 

[StevenF]

For those not aware her in first attempt at keeping fish in her tank frequently died due to her well water being very soft and acidic. It's probably much lower than the the 6 her test reads.

http://www.fishforums.net/threads/help-reading-this-ph-and-loss-of-fish-after-water-changes.442430/

Originally she got very good plant growth but would loose a fish after the water change and she originally thought it was due to her Ammano shrimp. At the time She had only recently moved into home and was not aware that the bead of crushed coral used to neutralize the tap water PH was was empty or severely depleted. That was fixed. We also know that if her well water is left in a empty bucket it will outgas CO2 and PH will rise (but i don't remember how much.

I believe she could put well water aside and let it outgas and she would be fine as long as she tests the water to verify the PH is above 6 before she does a water change. My understanding is that she has been using ro / DI mixed with her tap water. I believe she still has a small amount of crushed coral inside her tank.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Oh man, I'm soooooo happy that you three showed up!!!
I knew I needed the "big guns" with this post!

There are pH sensors out there that measure the entire range from 1.0 to 14.0.

Looks like I'll have to invest in one of these. I'll do some research and see what people like.
I believe StevenF has tested a few!

40 ppm, you'll need to raise that significantly to get it in the range for the endlers. It would need to be about 5-6 times higher than that

Holy crap! No wonder I can't keep them! Although I've been able to keep them much longer than I was in the beginning.

your kH reading is in degrees of hardness, then you are a little over the hardness they prefer...

Wait...what? Too hard? I'm reading the results on the Tetra 6 in 1 test strip and I'm guessing that's American and maybe you read it differently?!

You see why we always advise selecting fish suited to your water

Oh yes, I TOTALLY see and want to do this now! I just knew I couldn't until all of my endlers had passed and I'm down to two...

If I were you, I would use the well water alone

But I still need to find a test and make sure it's not absurdly low right?!

I do not add anything to my tap water (except conditioner for the chlorine of course

I don't have chlorine in my well or tap....so I do not need to use Prime (or similar conditioner) correct?
I don't now (after you told me a while back to stop adding stuff I don't need).

3 tablespoons of aragonite in a mesh bag

I have this also in my tank now....which keeps my PH above 7 (which I thought was good for my endlers)

For those not aware her in first attempt at keeping fish in her tank frequently died due to her well water being very soft and acidic

Oh man thanks so much for remembering that post and linking this one to it!!!
Small correction though....my first attempt was not direct well water as I had no clue I could bypass those things in the basement that the coral is in. BUT apparently it had recently been changed when I started the tank as I had a high 7.6 PH but when I started losing fish like crazy a little down the road the PH had crashed hard as I guess the coral had weakened.
That's when I learned about what those canisters did and that my Well and Tap were two different things all together.

Originally she got very good plant growth but would loose a fish after the water change

My plant growth was INSANE when my water was jacked up.
Once I started using 1/2 RO and half tap my plants all pretty much melted and now I only keep Anubias and something else that has roots above the substrate.....crypts maybe?!
I have a ton of both crammed into my tank though and they do very well!
Oh and I was also using Flourish Excel when my plant growth was awesome but stopped after reading horror storied about it.
Now I only add Flourish Comprehensive. As suggested by you and a few others here.

We also know that if her well water is left in a empty bucket it will outgas CO2 and PH will rise (but i don't remember how much.

I don't remember either. I have taken very detailed notes in a fish journal (i'm a dork) but could NOT find this information.
I will do this test again once I have something that can read the lower levels.

I believe she still has a small amount of crushed coral inside her tank.

I do! About a 1/4 cup in a mesh bag in filter.

 

[Byron]

On the GH and KH numbers, let us know what unit ofmeasurement your test kits or strips use; unit of measurement means ppm, dGH/KH, mg/l, etc.

But I still need to find a test and make sure it's not absurdly low right?!

It would be beneficial to know everything about the water. Personally, I don't bother and I know some of my tanks have pH well below 5. But they contain fish that live in this type of water.

I don't have chlorine in my well or tap....so I do not need to use Prime (or similar conditioner) correct?
I don't now (after you told me a while back to stop adding stuff I don't need).

I wouldn't use Prime, definitely; it does too much with the chemistry and biology and none of that is needed. The only possible thing a conditioner might be beneficial for would be heavy metals. But as the water is very soft and acidic (presumably), this shouldn't be an issue. If you can, it might be worth having a professional test (by a lab somewhere) for the water. I'm not suggesting I see anything warranting this, it is just so you will know exactly what may be present. Though it doesn't sound like much is. Perfect Amazonian stream water.

I have this also in my tank now....which keeps my PH above 7 (which I thought was good for my endlers)

Yes it was, along with a higher GH. But if you change to soft water fish, you might be fine with the well water on its own. Depending upon species, using a very small amount of dolomite or aragonite to maintain a pH around 6 for example might benefit. It depends upon the species.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Holy crap! No wonder I can't keep them! Although I've been able to keep them much longer than I was in the beginning.


Wait...what? Too hard? I'm reading the results on the Tetra 6 in 1 test strip and I'm guessing that's American and maybe you read it differently?!

Well, that's the question... If the 40 you mention is 40 ppm, then its too soft... WAY too soft. BUT... if the 40 you mentioned is 40 degrees of kH, then its a little too hard.

The exact unit of measure is the key to understanding what the numbers mean.
http://www.apifishcare.com/pdf/Testing_Chart_1_16_14-4.pdf
Knowing that its the API test strip means that the hardness is 40 ppm, which is significantly too soft.

 

[thrujenseyes]

let us know what unit ofmeasurement your test kits or strips use

It's "ppm"

if you change to soft water fish, you might be fine with the well water on its own.

this is definitely my goal!

Depending upon species, using a very small amount of dolomite or aragonite to maintain a pH around 6 for example might benefit. It depends upon the species.

I'd be totally fine with that as a minor adjustment.

Knowing that its the API test strip means that the hardness is 40 ppm, which is significantly too soft.

Oh man....here I thought raising my ph was enough to keep my endlers happy and instead I'm torturing them. Ugh! Terrible fish Mom.

I'll try to do better with my next batch which will hopefully be cute little soft water fish... that I won't torture.

I sure hope my shrimp can survive soft water (although I suppose they can as they've been my only inhabitants to do well thru out this mess of a journey).

My poor Nerite may not though....his shell will suffer won't it?!

I'm getting ahead of myself.

I'll worry about getting something to test the lower levels of my well water and will go from there!

Thanks for the help guys!!! I very much appreciate it!

 

[StevenF]

How to test pH lower than 6.0 - the answer is MORE EXPENSIVE. There are pH sensors out there that measure the entire range from 1.0 to 14.0. An electronic pH sensor would give you the answer to the first question...

There is a low cost way to measure low PH:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005FYGXUC/?tag=ff0d01-20

This is ph paper that can give a reading of 1 to 14 basically the entire range. I looked through the earlier post and she did put out a container of water and out monitored the PH. It went from a PH of 6 to 7.6 in a few days. Thrujenseyes, you should repeat the test. check the PH once per day.

 

[thrujenseyes]

It went from a PH of 6 to 7.6 in a few days. Thrujenseyes, you should repeat the test. check the PH once per day.

wwhhaattt?! I did?! OMG that's a big jump!!! That can't be right I'll definitely do this again!

And thanks for the link on the ph paper!! Going to check out right now!

 

[thrujenseyes]

There is a low cost way to measure low PH:https/www.amazon.com/Hydrion-pape...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1R9TQWFJPETJGX2CSVEY

Ok...so they're in my shopping cart.
Looks like people use these to test the levels in humans and products with these?
And that they aren't spot on like the fish tests?
These test the whole range from 1-14 but will only tell which number we are.
So, if my water is a 5.7 it will only come up a 5?
Is that correct?

oh also, Steven...was it you that tested a few different mechanical ph testers and did a post on it?
If so, can you link me to it please.

 

[StevenF]

And that they aren't spot on like the fish tests?
These test the whole range from 1-14 but will only tell which number we are.

It just gives use a general idea as to where the well is. And with it you could see if the PH changes over time. Also knowing the GH and KH values it might be possible for use to estimate how much CO2 is int your well water.

oh also, Steven...was it you that tested a few different mechanical ph testers and did a post on it?

I don't know where they information is on the forums I first got a cheep PH meter on line about $20 with PH 4 and PH7 calibration solutions. The meter was made in china. The instructions were hard to understand. If I calibrated it with the PH 4 solution it read correctly at 4 but was wrong when i put in in the pH 7 solution. If I calibrated it with the pH 7 solution it would read wrong at 4. Furthermore the readout never really stabilized. i concluded cheap ws not the way to go.

I then purchases a hanna instruments Ph meter designed for class room use. It cost $40 dollars but had to purchase the calibration solutions separately. Te also recommended a storage solution to prevent the sensor from drying out when it was not in use. Overall I spent about $100 for it. It had none of the issues the low cost one did. However after about 1 year the sensor failed. ( I have not yet replaced it ($12)k While it was working it generated numbers that we in agreement with my test strips but with higher resolution and no color charts.

http://hannainst.com/hi98100-checker-plus-ph-tester.html

 

[thrujenseyes]

It just gives use a general idea as to where the well is. And with it you could see if the PH changes over time. Also knowing the GH and KH values it might be possible for use to estimate how much CO2 is int your well water.

I placed that order and by the time it arrives my "fresh from the well water, that I got last night" will have been outgassing for a few days.
I just tested it now about 15 hours later and
the PH is reading the lowest level.
And everything else is zero except for the KH which is 25.

I'm excited to see where the ph falls.
But a little scared that it's super low and I won't be able to keep anything alive in it!

Thanks for the links. The meters sound confusing....I'll do much research and see what my brain can deal with.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Quite a few 'rasboras' or 'boraras' species would be suitable, even in water as low as 4.0 pH.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Quite a few 'rasboras' or 'boraras' species would be suitable, even in water as low as 4.0 pH.

[emoji51][emoji16] that makes me super happy [emoji1360][emoji1323]


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