Ick And Inverts

[tomstanks]

A Client of mine bought bi color angel and it now has ick. He treated the tank with a reef safe (no copper) cure. The fish seems worse and now the shirmp are all hanging out at the top of the tank near the heater. All the water paramaters check out fine except nitrite at 40 pmm. I am going to do a partial today for him...I know with ick it can make it worse, but I want that nitrite lower so we don't nuke the inverts. Any suggestions.

 

[Fish Fingers]

If you actually do mean nitrite and not nitrate than this amount is massive. However I am sure it is a typo so if you do mean nitrate then it is still very high. I beleive shrimp can't tolerate high nitrates, which may be causing their behaviour and it is probably partly the blame for the fish worsening. I'm sure that the fish would find it very hard to recover from a disease when the nitrates are so high so you need to get them >10ppm pronto.

 

[tomstanks]

If you actually do mean nitrite and not nitrate than this amount is massive. However I am sure it is a typo so if you do mean nitrate then it is still very high. I beleive shrimp can't tolerate high nitrates, which may be causing their behaviour and it is probably partly the blame for the fish worsening. I'm sure that the fish would find it very hard to recover from a disease when the nitrates are so high so you need to get them >10ppm pronto.

Partial the best way to do this?

If you actually do mean nitrite and not nitrate than this amount is massive. However I am sure it is a typo so if you do mean nitrate then it is still very high. I beleive shrimp can't tolerate high nitrates, which may be causing their behaviour and it is probably partly the blame for the fish worsening. I'm sure that the fish would find it very hard to recover from a disease when the nitrates are so high so you need to get them >10ppm pronto.

Partial the best way to do this?

And yes it was a typo

 

[SkiFletch]

from the little I understand about salt water tanks, a partial water change is the best way to get the nitrates down. what kind of filtration is used? how old is the tank? and are there any dead organisms decomposing in the tank?

 

[Fish Fingers]

I'd do a big water change (around 30-40%) then do small water changes until your nitrates are >10ppm. As as said above you need to find out what is causing these nitrates and get rid of it!

 

[Navarre]

do you have large quantities of liverock? This is the practically the only filtration method that will actively reduce nitrates in your system without water changes.

 

[tomstanks]

do you have large quantities of liverock? This is the practically the only filtration method that will actively reduce nitrates in your system without water changes.

OK here is the deal...I could use some help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got there to do the tank and the nitrates and nitrites are out of wack. The tank is 57 gallon...with 65 pounds of fully cured live rock. My client put in a new fish. He had a royal gramma...and than a scooter blenny. Just...two small fish. He added a bi color angel. All water parameters were FINE after the scooter blenny, and he did not add the angel until about a month or more later. He also added a few pieces of coral...(3)The angel got ick....he treated it with a reef safe ick cure. It got worse....he tested the water. The Nitrate and Nitrite levels were high.....(NOTE: I regularly maintian this tank every two weeks and have had NO problems with it.) He called me, and I went up to look at it. I went ahead and did a partial to bring the nitrates and nitrites down. I even did a second one right after the first one to further lower them. I cleaned out his canister filter thinking it might have become a nitrate factory...possible but I consider it unlikely as it was not especially in bad shape. I finished the partial and left him a note to do water tests the next day and call me with the results. He just did so. Nitrates and nitrites are at toxic levels...all fish are dead...some inverts are toast...the coral is alive but likley in a bad way. What the heck happened? I am going up today to do something....another partial and we are going to start over. I am concerned about the corals...several snails and clean up crew members are still alive. I could use some ideas here as I have never had a nitrite spike. I have 20 tanks and have never had this kind of mystery. The water even has a grey cast to it. Ideas? I asked if any toxin could have gotten into the tank....he assures me nothing did.
BTW: This tank has a skimmer on it and a power head for current along with the canister filter.

PM'ed you Navarre.

 

[Aquascaper]

All I can do is offer the opinion that something may have come in on the coral such as a nudi and has subsequently died causing an inital chemical imbalance which has then led to a collapse in the nitrogen cycle and the nitrite spike.
As the tank is quite small this, I feel, is a viable explanation especially as I had a similar experience when my nudi died and nuked my 56g a few years ago. All that left was a few inverts and a couple of corals but no fish - similar to what your friend has had happen.

 

[tomstanks]

All I can do is offer the opinion that something may have come in on the coral such as a nudi and has subsequently died causing an inital chemical imbalance which has then led to a collapse in the nitrogen cycle and the nitrite spike.
As the tank is quite small this, I feel, is a viable explanation especially as I had a similar experience when my nudi died and nuked my 56g a few years ago. All that left was a few inverts and a couple of corals but no fish - similar to what your friend has had happen.

This sounds very plausable considering my experience and the fact that the tank was completely stable before the coral introduction. Now I honestly am at a loss....how did you get your tank water parameters fixed? Did you just keep doing massive partials. I was freaking out about this a bit because I could not figure it out....I know I didn't do anything to cause it, but I still fell very responsible to my client. I can tell he is discouraged, and I don't blame him. I want to get his tank back up and running as soon as possible so it can bring him relaxation...not stress....like it supposed to do. He trusts me to make this happen, and I plan on delivering. I supose he is just a victim of bad luck....if this is what happened.

 

[Aquascaper]

Big water changes and lots of patience was what sorted my tank out in the end. If it's an comfort it sounds like the worst is over as whatever it was has done the damage and now you're into damage limitation and cleanup territory.

I would go with large regular water changes, if it is a water-born contaminant then it will soon be gone that way. Keep a close eye on the corals as they are always the best indicator of water quality.

 

[Navarre]

Hmmm this is unfortunate and im sorry for all the losses. )

Its very hard to pin down exactly what has happened to the system but i would go along with a similar vain to Aquascaper and say that "something" has died within the system and caused a massive spike. If the tank is newly set then this is highly likely. because the bacteria have only just got esablished and there would not be enough to hanld e massive spike such as a decaying invert/budi or similar object.
Without knowing what caused the spike its hard to give more presice details than this. However, the canister filter being cleaned out might not have helped to lessen the problem. WHen this canister was cleaned all bacteria within wil have gone leaving the tank with far less capacity to fight off the nutrient spikes and thus pushed the tank even deeper i nto dangerour levels. When i had my old system with living rock/skimmer and canister filter it took me 34 months to slowly remove all the substance from the canister and only have an empty shell to assist in flow. By removing just a little at a time it never depleted the bacteria levels to low to cause a danger.
Now im not saying this was the only cause of course as there were problems before this was cleaned but IME it only helped to esculaate the problem )

Ok so the tank is basically fallow.. no fish and either none or very little corals? If so then i would take your time, i tend to dissagree with aqua on the partial water changes as there is hardly eny lif left in the system. I would let the tank continue its cycle and once all the nitrites have gone then i would do a water change. If you do quick partial water changes now you are only diluting the cycle and making it last longer. IS there anywhere the remainingcorals canbe housed in the meantime for your client? Im sure he will appreciate it if you explain this is the most thoroughand best way to do things.

 

[Aquascaper]

Agreed Nav, if the remaining stock can be housed elsewhere then leave the tank as it is and allow it to re-cycle before re-introducing the stock carefully. I was only thinking of trying to save the remaining stock so if it has to stay in the tank I personally would risk prolonging the re-cycle.

 

[tomstanks]

Agreed Nav, if the remaining stock can be housed elsewhere then leave the tank as it is and allow it to re-cycle before re-intrpducting the stock carrefully. I was only thinking of trying to save the remaining stock so if it has to stay in the tank I personally would risk prolonging the re-cycle.

There is no where to safely house the corals so I will go with a small water change and then hope to ride it out.

 

[gatorman543]

about the ick once it has moved tanks, since you cant use traditiontal ick cure beceause it kills inverts, raise your temperature, arround 83.5+ and the bacteria slowly will, die it worked for my potters angel, ick was cured in just around a day

 

[Navarre]

If the tank has no fish and you will be taking longer to cycle the system then the parasite will have its cycle broken and it will starve to death. If you wish to raise the temperature during this time it will increase the speed of the parasites life cycle and thus it will starve faster.