Ich in my community tank

[Colin_T]

It's probably a combination of the heat and salt. A 20% water change will dilute the salt and should reduce the stress from that.

Keep the temp at 30C (86F) for 2 weeks then slowly bring the temp down over a couple of days.

Don't worry too much about the Betta who isn't eating. Fish can go for weeks without food and if you do a 20% water change it should reduce the salt enough for her.

Make sure you gravel clean the substrate when you water change to suck out any whitespot cysts on the substrate.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

I missed the nerite...yes, salt is not likely a factor there, so that could be temperature? You might move him elsewhere to see, but remember that he can carry ich with him to other tanks.

The one-two week temp should be OK, but again keep an eye on them. I had some 50 wild caught cories in the tank I treated with salt, and none were lost (that was 2-3 years ago) and I did not see any issues at the time, as I was keeping a close eye due to the heat and salt.

For the regular temperature, 78-79 is a bit warm for most cories; in the mid-70's is better. Mine are at 74-75F (24.5 C). Several species have repeatedly spawned, and I have had most of these for over 7-8 years now, so this temp seems OK. One or two degrees may not seem like much, but fish are ectotherms so their metabolism is governed strictly by the external temperature of the water. The warmer the water, the more energy it takes to function, and this adds to the fish's stress and affects many functions. So fish generally speaking will be better able to function and cope with adverse issues in cooler rather than warmer water...again being general. Some fish need the higher temps, and some will have less trouble outside their best range. But in general, when a range of temperature is indicated for a species, mid-range is usually better long-term. The low and high ends are manageable but not often if permanent.

The 78-79 (F) temp was selected because of the bettas. If mid 70's is better for the corys I can reassess, but I still want the water comfortable for the bettas. The bettas and the kuhlis are my pride and joy in the tank. Of course I want everyone to be comfortable, though. With what species I have in the tank, what do you suggest as a good compromise on the temperature? Somewhere closer to 75?

It's probably a combination of the heat and salt. A 20% water change will dilute the salt and should reduce the stress from that.

Keep the temp at 30C (86F) for 2 weeks then slowly bring the temp down over a couple of days.

Don't worry too much about the Betta who isn't eating. Fish can go for weeks without food and if you do a 20% water change it should reduce the salt enough for her.

Make sure you gravel clean the substrate when you water change to suck out any whitespot cysts on the substrate.

Yes, I am somewhat worried about the fish who isn't eating, because she's also lethargic and antisocial, and all of these things are out of character for her. I know she won't starve to death during the 2 weeks of salt and heat treatment. Maybe you're right and she's just reacting to the salt and will perk back up after I dilute the salt a bit tonight with a water change. I'll post an update at that time. So you know, this is the fish that had scales missing when I got her, as if she had been through something rough. Her scales have been looking a lot better the past few weeks, like they were finally starting to grow back. Then this stupid ich outbreak happened and now she's acting sicker than the fish that are showing white spots.

I hope all will be well in the long run. I'll keep the heat up for 2 weeks and stay on top of the water changes. I might do a second salt dose the next time I do a water change, I might not. Will assess if that's necessary when I that time comes.

 

[Byron]

The 78-79 (F) temp was selected because of the bettas. If mid 70's is better for the corys I can reassess, but I still want the water comfortable for the bettas. The bettas and the kuhlis are my pride and joy in the tank. Of course I want everyone to be comfortable, though. With what species I have in the tank, what do you suggest as a good compromise on the temperature? Somewhere closer to 75?

I'll start with another general observation. Finding a compromise rarely if ever works. Fish have specific needs (this applies to much more than temperature) and adjusting to a compromise tends to cause problems for the fish. This is why it takes considerable thought to putting together a community tank of more than one species...water parameters (GH, pH, temp), water flow, aquascape all factor in. Freshwater fish have evolved over thousands of years to function best in very specific conditions; these are programmed into the DNA and we are not going to alter them, which means the fish will not be "at its best." As I said, this is a generality, but one that applies to all fish. "Compromise" meaning we are expecting the fish to manage outside its expected environment.

Someone may raise the question of fluctuating temperature in the habitat...this is something of a myth. Water temperature in tropical areas tends to remain quite stable. Diurnal fluctuations are minimal, perhaps a degree or two if that, and seasonal are over longer periods but not much more variation than a couple of degrees. And fish can swim to cooler/warmer water if they like, something less easily achieved in an aquarium. But aside from this, when we are talking about an aquarium with a heater, we are talking about pretty consistent temperatures 24/7, and that immediately carries an impact on the fish. Varying outside the norm during summer heat waves is manageable, because this is not anywhere near consistent during the day/night as well as the time of year.,

Now to the specifics. I am not a Betta expert, but Seriously Fish gives the temperature range for Betta splendens (the common Siamese Fighting Fish) as 22-30C (71-86F). So here a temperature around 75-77F should not be a problem...but if Betta folks disagree, I won't argue. The cories I can say will function better at this temperature than they will at 78-79F. Some species have a higher temperature capacity, thinking of C. sterbai, C. duplicareus, and a very few others. However, this is not agreed by all cory aquarists. [Over on Ian Fuller's Corydoras World site, when the question of suitable cories with discus (requiring warm water above 80F) was raised, several adamantly said no cory should be in such warm water.] So placating your cories should be OK with the bettas. Kuhlii range is 23-29C/73-84F so they should be OK.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

IME bettas do get lethargic at 74 degrees and below. So for me, 75 seems like the absolute minimum temp for a betta tank, warmer if it's a species only or solitary tank. Even 75 seems too low to me but I'm willing to try it. I've had a lot of solitary bettas over the years. But never tried anything as ambitious as this sorority/community. I always keep my house between 73-75 (F), and it's always been the "room temp" bettas that are lethargic and boring and short lived. I learned that bettas need heaters several years ago, and since then I've always kept them between 77 and 80, and they thrive in this range.

What is the top of the corydoras' ideal temperature range? Is their highest recommended temp 75? Can they be comfortable at 76? I feel like that one degree jump from 75 to 76 could really benefit my bettas.

I use the word compromise as if we're talking about 2 people fighting over the thermostat. I get it, though. It's very different for fish. It seemed like everything was doing well at 78-79, but honestly it is hard to tell if a cory is acting out of character or not, because their behavior can just naturally be erratic. It's common for them to bask on the substrate for hours then suddenly find a jolt of energy and spend the next 20 minutes wiggling around at the surface. I spent the first week thinking my corys were sick when in fact they're just corys. I didn't know basking was normal for them until I googled their behavior. But like I said, it's hard to tell from behavior alone if a cory is acting out of character, at least for me it is, so if they've been having an adverse reaction to the water temperature, I may not have noticed, and I might've just thought everything looked fine.

 

[Byron]

What is the top of the corydoras' ideal temperature range? Is their highest recommended temp 75? Can they be comfortable at 76? I feel like that one degree jump from 75 to 76 could really benefit my bettas.

Looking back, the species is given as the albino form of Corydoras aeneus ("Bronze," "green," sometimes "Emerald" are common names for this species). Both SF and Planet Catfish give the range as 21-27C/70-80F. Keeping in mind that mid-range is almost always best long-term, I see nothing wrong with 76.

One way to observe problems is the fish's respiration. It takes some practice, but eventually you can tell what is normal and what is more rapid. Many things cause increased respiration, because it means the fish is trying to get more oxygen, and that is a normal condition for almost any issue. And the warmer the water, the less oxygen is dissolved in it, so respiration has to be faster to obtain the same level as under a lower temperature. Fish also respirate faster due to various normal activities, like eating, spawning, active interactions, etc. So it is not always a bad sign, but once you know the norm it is easier to detect possible issues early on.

I noticed my cories always respirating much faster in early morning, shortly after the light came on. I reasoned that with all the plants in the tank, there could be a shortage of oxygen and/or excess of CO2 first thing in the morning, and I seemed to have been correct. I increased the surface disturbance at the filter return, and no more early morning increased respiration. A few years ago I saw this same thing, and it turned out to be a slow filter flow because I had let the filter go too long between cleaning and the fish were reacting. Spending time just sitting in front of a tank motionless and observing fish can teach us a lot.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Thank you so much @Byron. I will update again after this evening's water change. (Probably post the update tomorrow)

To confirm, yes, they are Corydoras Aeneus. @seangee was wondering about that earlier in this thread, too. I got them at PetSmart, and their website confirms the scientific name. Screenshot direct from their site. They do carry peppered corydoras, but not in the albino variety.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Update:

I did a 25% water change to help dilute some of the salt, but I didn't really notice any difference with my items of concern. I planned on doing a bigger, routine water change this weekend, anyway, as the weekends are when I do big water changes normally. So I might go ahead and do that on Sunday. Should I add aquarium salt to the new water at that time? Or do you think the one dose of salt was enough, and I can just proceed to use heat for the second week?

The white spots are even less, now. I only see one white spot on one fish now. And it's not one of the 2 fish I originally noticed the parasite on. It's one of the later infected fish. It only developed this one spot, not several like the fish infected earlier. So I can see the treatment is working.

The one suddenly antisocial betta is still being antisocial and hiding, and not eating. I'll continue to monitor her. She might be eating when I'm not looking, but I doubt it, as I can see she's starting to get thinner. The thing is, she's acting just like Lucy did before she died. In the days leading up to Lucy's death, she was doing the exact same things... hiding alone in dark cavernous areas of the tank, not coming out right away during feeding, not eating with the other fish during feeding, not socializing with the other bettas. The behavior is very much the same. Lucy died last week, 12 days after introducing the sorority to the tank. I assumed she was bullied to death for her size, even though I never saw any bullying, just because of how she was hiding all the time. But now Roseanne is doing it, too, and she's the same size as the others, not smaller like Lucy was. So maybe it wasn't bullying that killed Lucy after all, maybe it was ich. I never saw white spots on her, though. As I said, I didn't see any white spots on any fish until the day after the big rearrange.

Post Treatment Changes:
I've been noticing small (very very small) nips on some of the bettas' fins. I assumed that happened while they were establishing a pecking order, but now I'm seeing nips on the corys fins too. The dorsal fin on one of the corys is almost completely gone. From what I can see, these don't look anything like fin rot, they look like the result of fin ninpping. I don't think my bettas are responsible, though. I think it's the neon tetras. I have 11 of them.

So, after the ich is gone, I think I want to move the neons to another tank. I'm thinking a 10 or 15 gallon tank. Maybe 20 gallons. I haven't decided yet. I need to purchase a tank and start cycling it with seeded media soon, though, as I want to move them sooner rather than later. As for tank mates, I think I want to do a second tetra species, or maybe even a third. Basically just have a tetra-only tank. I know each tetra species will need its own shoal. What other tetra species go well with neons? I've had my eye on red eye tetras, black neons, and blind cave fish, but IDK about compatibility with neons or different water requirements. I definitely want a small tank with 2 or 3 different shoals in it (one of the shoals being my 11 neons, of course), the smallest tank I can reasonably have that many fish in without overcrowding.

That will leave this tank with the sorority, kuhli loaches, corydoras, shrimp, and a snail, and will relieve some of the bioload so I can maybe add more bettas. I have 2 female bettas not yet in this tank, a crowntail juvenile, and a white elephant ear. The crowntail is in her juvie tank, until she grows, and the elephant ear is in QT. The elephant ear is about the same size Lucy was, though, so I might want to give her some time to grow too. I initially passed on her, because of her size, but 2 weeks later she was still sitting on the shelf at Petco, and I couldn't get her out of my head since first seeing her, so I took her home.

After removing the tetras, I may want another peaceful shoaling mid-level fish to replace them in this tank. Just maybe in a smaller number than 11 since I plan on adding more bettas. Any recommendations? What about harlequin rasboras?

My PH is around 7.6, and I have pretty hard water.

Again, I'm not going to do any of these changes until ich treatment is done and over with and I'm absolutely certain the parasite is gone. I don't want to infect more tanks or fish.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Okay, the fish that’s been antisocial and hasn’t eaten for the past few days, this is what she looks like today. (Long white stringy poo)

My tank is still sitting at 86

I’m reading that internal parasites can be a secondary thing when treating Ich. Is that what this looks like to you guys? I didn’t think long white stringy poo was a symptom of ich so I’ve been doing some research and it seems like it occurs a lot when treating ich with heat. What should I do? Should I move on to medication? Or just keep doing what I’m doing with the heat.

 

[NickAu]

IMO 75f is a little low for a Betta, 78 is good 80 is Betta.

 

[Colin_T]

The stringy white poop and not eating has nothing to do with the Ich parasite or treatment.
Internal parasites are not a secondary thing to whitespot. Fish can have internal and external parasites at the same time. They can have intestinal worms (threadworms & tapeworm), internal protozoan infections and internal bacterial infections, all of which can cause stringy white poop. They can have one of these or all of these at the same time and they can have external parasite like Ich, Costia and anchorworm on top of that.

Your fish only have whitespot and possibly an internal problem that is killing the Bettas one at a time.

The fish has not eaten for several days and should not have anything left in her digestive tract to poop out. The white/ cream thing hanging out of her in the photo almost looks like a tapeworm. The fish looks pretty fat too and that could mean she has eggs or she has an internal infection (bacterial or protozoan).

External medications are useless for treating internal problems in fish. If you can find some medicated food you could try feeding her that but without knowing what the actual problem is you could be just wasting your money.

You could move her into a small container and try medicated food. To deal with any whitespot she might be carrying you would have to move her into a clean container of water each day and wash the other container out and let it dry before re-using it. Or you can leave her in the main tank and see what happens.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Saturday night one of my corydoras was looking pretty rough. I had assumed the tetras were fin nipping the corys, but then Saturday one of them had rapidly developed severe fin rot. I put him in a breeder box, and by Sunday morning he was dead. Picture attached. This is what he looked like Saturday night when I put him in the breeder. As you can see, red irritated patches all over him, including on his rotted fin. This was very rapid. Of course when I found him dead the next day, I removed him and did a water change.

My aquarium is still doing the heat treatment.

I also quarantined the betta who looked like she had a tapeworm. She's in a 1 gallon bowl right now with a sponge filter (no carbon) and some API general cure (for parasites). I'm 99.9% sure it's tapeworm she has. The day after I took the picture I previously posted, the tapeworm was no longer visible, but then come Sunday it was visible again, so I went ahead and just isolated her and started medication.

When I isolated the one betta, two of the others started to fight. So I had to quickly break that up, and utilize breeder boxes and betta cups. All but the one betta are still in the main tank, but isolated in breeder boxes or floating betta cups. I did notice, though, that pretty much all of my bettas have swollen abdomens. Now, I might just be over-feeding, so I'm going to leave everyone separated and fast them over the next few days while the one fish is in quarantine for tapeworm meds, so I can see if they're swollen or just fat. Besides, the main tank is still doing a heat treatment anyway. So if there is a tapeworm outbreak in the main tank I kind of have to wait until I finish the heat treatment before medicating for tapeworm. I have another whole week of heat left to do.

I'm really sad that I lost a cory. I expected that losses could happen while treating for all these parasites, but it's still heartbreaking when it happens. Lesson learned about quarantining new arrivals, especially from pet stores. It could've been any fish that brought these problems in to the tank, but they took weeks to show up.

 

[Colin_T]

You can treat tapeworm orally. You get some Praziquantel tablets and crush them up and mix with frozen but defrosted fish food. I think the dose rate was 2 tablets crushed into a powder and mixed with 1 heaped tablespoon of frozen food (I used bloodworms). Then feed all the fish at the same time. Give the fish as much to eat as they can eat. I repeated the process 2 more times on that day. A total of 3 feedings that day and then you can repeat it a week later, and one week after that. So a total of 3 treatments one week apart. It works just as effectively as adding it to the water and letting the fish drink and absorb it.

Praziquantel is used to treat cats and dogs for tapeworm and is available from anywhere that sells pet products. A lot of petshops also sell it to treat gill flukes and worms in fish.

Praziquantel does not treat threadworms.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Part of me wants to just grab this worm with some tweezers and pull.

Here’s Roseanne in her hospital tank (a bowl from my kitchen)

Another Cory suddenly has rotted fins. I’ve isolated this one, like I did the other. But the last one who’s fins rotted so rapidly died the next day, so I’m not too optimistic about this one. Could it be the heat causing the Corys to rapidly lose fin tissue and die?

 

[Colin_T]

The heat will be encouraging bacteria to grow faster and it is bacteria that cause finrot. If you could do a huge 75-90% water change that might help by reducing the harmful pathogens in the water, but it would be a matter of raising the temperature of the new water to 30C (86F) so there is no temperature fluctuations in the tank. It's probably easier to move the cories into a separate tank and treat with a broad spectrum medication containing Methylene Blue & Malachite Green.

The Betta either has worms (threadworms or tapeworm or possibly both) or has an internal protozoan infection. I would treat for worms first and if she continues to do stringy white poop, then use some medicated food containing Metronidazole. But try deworming first. And if you use Metronidazole, treat the fish in a small quarantine tank and feed the medication to the fish. Don't add it to the tank because it was never designed for aquarium use and wipes out filters.

 

[Fishmanic]

can you treat for worms with liquid prazipro mixed with freeze dried bloodworms or ground flake ..I might have a similar issue with one of my serpae tetra