I Need Help With My Pup

But you are completely ignoring that a dog can show guilt about something its done before you even know it has done something wrong, take michelle's example of the dog showing guilt even before the owner was aware of what the dog had done wrong;

About dogs not havign consciences, I disagree with that. The dog I mainly grew up with, you could tell if he did something bad earlier. Say for instance we were out for the day and he chewed something, or overturned a flower pot, or anything, it didn't matter if he had done it early in the day or just before we got home, you could tell as soon as you walked in the door, he would be low to the ground, tail between his legs and would look so upset.


KathyM and Canis-Equus, you say that dogs show guilt because they pick up our body language, so if this is true, how could a dog show guilt about something you did not know it had even done yet (you can't show body language about something you don't know about yet)? Answer me that!

Amoungst the many definitions of what it means to have a conscience, here is the simplest;

"Conscience= Knowledge of your own acts as right or wrong";

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&c...on&ct=title

A conscience is the ability to learn right from wrong- i don't know about you guys definition of it, but thats it. People are born with the ability to learn right from just as much as dogs are born with such an ability.
 
Learned behaviour.

As i thought i had explained. You reprimand your dog when you find a poo, yes?

So your dog learns that POO is bad. He cannot remember that him MAKING that poo in that place is bad, but he knows that if theres poo there, you will be angry.

So you go out, he needs to poo and so he must poo. You come home and he knows theres a poo the combination of poo + owner = bad. So he shows the guilty behaviour.

Thats why in the experiment where my friend took a poo out of the garden and put it in the kitchen, her dog then displayed his 'oh no ise done a poo ise in trouble' face. He HADNT done the poo in the kitchen but associated its presence with owner coming in to mean bad things (upset owner).... so he shows teh appeasement behaviour.


Dogs WANT to please us, they want this very badly so if this method worked, if dogs KNEW right from wrong (to have a concience one must know right from wrong), could feel 'guilt' then they wouldnt do this! And blatantly, they do.

Its a short step from believing dogs understand right from wrong and have a conscience to believing that dogs do things purposefully to spite us!


I will go so far as to say, as far as house training is concerned, dont EVEN shout at your dog if you catch him in the act. Instead, remove him sharply to outside, or if its too late, its too late, quietly clean up and berate yourself for not being faster off the mark that time.

The reason here is this. What YOU intend to convey is 'OI dont poo in here'...... however what the dog LEARNS is 'OI DONT POO IN FRONT OF ME'......

And so he starts to sneak off to poo, hide behind the sofa to poo, poo on the bed and bury it in the covers.

So then you go MENTAL when you find a poo in the bed (who wouldnt!), you show the dog, you shout at him. He after a few repetitions (which there will be as hes now sneaking off to poo elsewhere), now learns that when owners find poo, bad things happen.

So he starts to eat his poo!

Or, when you go out, and he needs sthe toilet and poos in the house, he learns to fear the owners return, and develops seperation anxiety - mental torment as hes anxious about being alone, and then anxious about the owners return.

Poor confused puppy.

So now theres a pup who'd rather eat his poo, or trash the house in fear of the owners return because hes pood somewhere...... and you want him to poo in the garden where you can see, so that you know hes gone.

But he wont, he knows if he poos in front of you, you shout at him. So he holds it in..... so hes worse when you go out..... eventually you get sick of him and send him to rescue.



That might seem like im over egging the cake a tad, but im not. That DOES happen, and it happens far far too frequently from the simple mistake in human interpretation of a dogs body language.



Tokis - missed your thing about conscience -

WE learn from an early age what is and isnt acceptable - but these things are frequently social rules that change depending on where you are. For example, in the UK belching is considered unpleasant and rude - ie wrong. In other countries this is not the case.

We are taught as humans for the most part that stealing is unacceptable, our sense of ownership and material possessions is HUGE - we earn money and collect possessions, even if we arent currently using those possessions for someone else to take them is wrong.

For a DOG though, possession really IS nine tenths of the law - if its in a dogs mouth, it belongs to that dog. If its in another room, its anyones, be it food, toys, whatever.

So when your dog sees your hairbrush on the sofa, well its not in your hand (or mouth), its not next to you, thus its free for anyones use.

As humans we learn that faeces and urine are dirty. These rules change as we age though - for an 18 month old child, messing in its nappy is not considered dirty, its considered normal. For an 18 YEAR old human, that would be considered dirty.

Dogs naturally have a VERY small area they would define as 'bed' or 'den' and endeavour to keep clean. This would probably correlate to a humans bed.

It does NOT correlate to the whole of a human beings HOUSE, that is far too wide a space to be considered a den, and thus the untrained dog would not consider it 'wrong' by his own social and instinctive rules to poo in this area.

When you teach a dog that toiletting in the house is wrong, you are trying to convey that the ENTIRE house is out of bounds. For you thats a simple concept 'all of the house'. For the DOG thats a very different matter.

Your perception of your house is probably this: Living room, kitchen, hall, bedroom, bathroom, cosy sofa, bed.

Your DOGS perception is more likely this: Spot thats warm by sofa where i can see the living room door, spot thats warm in hall where i can see the front door and the living room door, kitchen where food happens, back door where going out happens, spot in hall by cupboard where leads are, spot at top of stairs where its warm and i can see front door bedroom doors, bathroom where mum is all wet and i can dry her and big white refilling dog bowl, spot on floor by bedroom door where i can smell mum under the door, spot on bedroom floor where there is a nasty draught and its cold, spot by bed where its warm and no one will accidentally step on me in the night, cosy bed where i can snuggle up, ..... and even MORE defined....... spot in kitchen where mum spilt chip fat three years ago, spot 2" away where someone did a wee, spot over by cooker where someone dropped some sausages - spot on sofa where someone spilt tea - spot on cushion where someones wiped bolognese sauce, spot on landing where someone dropped dirty washing......


To attempt to teach a dog clearly that ALL THOSE PLACES and the ones inbetween are 'wrong' is a massive undertaking, and really quite pointless.

Far far better to teach the more simple, positive lesson - 'if you always pee on this grass here you will always get a reward'.

That is a lesson a dog CAN learn, he CAN learn that its 'right' to go here, but only because its a thing thats rewarded. NOT because its inherently 'right' - because to him with his social and instinctive rules, its fine to toilet anywhere but in his 2ft by 4ft bed!
 
Learned behavior? But that would imply the dog also knows what is right behavior from wrong behavior too, having a consceince is the ability to learn right from wrong (shrimp for example don't have a conscience, you can't teach them a thing, they don't learn stuff and are run completely by instincts etc).
A human child, like a dog, is not born knowing right from wrong, they have to learn these things as they grow up, but that doesn't mean that children don't have a conscience- do you disagree with this?

Secondly i have never advised shouting at dogs, going mental at them, installing fear into them etc etc so you don't need to go on about that like i am implying i believe in that kind of stuff etc.
 
Im not implying anything Tokis. If i wanted to SAY i think someones stupid or abusive or whatever, ill just say so, its far easier. I havent, because i dont.


Ive tried to clarify but im not making it clear enough.

Dogs do what is rewarded. To get your dog to do the 'right' things and not the 'wrong' things, you reward the right things (and prevent or ignore the wrong things).

He learns its 'right' because its rewarded. Dogs dont do 'the right thing' if its not rewarded in some way - that can be rewarded by you specifically, or rewarded because the 'right' behaviour is self rewarding.

You are attempting to teach that a thing is 'wrong' by punishing - punishing does not imply cruelty, even simply removing a pleasant thing is a punishment.

Dogs dont learn right from wrong. They learn 'acceptable and rewarded' from 'unacceptable and punished/not rewarded'.

Your concept of right and a dogs concept of right are entirely different - we know its not right to fight. For a dog thats normal natural and acceptable.

We know its not 'right' to bite people - dogs bite, its one of their tools and if they need to, they use it.

Right and wrong is a human concept, not an animal concept. Animals dont do 'fair, just, right' any more than they do 'wrong, bad, evil'.....

If you start to think of dog behaviour as simply something the dog finds rewarding you can forget right and wrong, right and wrong doesnt matter to dogs.

Im confused - early on in this thread you had a bit of a go at me claiming i treated dogs as equals, yet YOU are claiming dogs have complex understanding of concepts that are purely human!
 
He learns its 'right' because its rewarded. Dogs dont do 'the right thing' if its not rewarded in some way - that can be rewarded by you specifically, or rewarded because the 'right' behaviour is self rewarding.


That is a completely wrong assumption- dogs don't just do good things for rewards or because they are taught to.
Here is a story of a dog, with no training, saved his owner by running for help when his owner fell face down in a ditch of water;


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_y...ire/4880476.stm

There are many stories like this, and in a lot of them the dog has recieved no training at all. So by going by your rules of dog psychology, dogs shouldn't be capable of these things unless they've been taught to do them.


Your concept of right and a dogs concept of right are entirely different - we know its not right to fight. For a dog thats normal natural and acceptable.

We know its not 'right' to bite people - dogs bite, its one of their tools and if they need to, they use it.

Right and wrong is a human concept, not an animal concept. Animals dont do 'fair, just, right' any more than they do 'wrong, bad, evil'.....

If you start to think of dog behaviour as simply something the dog finds rewarding you can forget right and wrong, right and wrong doesnt matter to dogs.



Not at all- if you study psychology, you will soon realise that what an individual see's right or wrong is almost purely seen as due to what the person has learnt, especially from society. Someone may feel remorse over murdering someone, while another person would not even consider feeling guilt. We are not born with these things programed into us- we learn them as we grow.



Im confused - early on in this thread you had a bit of a go at me claiming i treated dogs as equals, yet YOU are claiming dogs have complex understanding of concepts that are purely human!


I am not saying dogs are equal to us and are still not, but i don't believe that having a conscience is something that only humans possess.
If you think only humans have a conscience, then how can some animals show emotions like grief for example? There have been many up to date studies done by qualified professionals and scientists in such area's who are now coming to the conclusion that some types of animals certainly do have a conscience by being able to express things like grief (which has been studied a lot in monkeys for example).

I think you are seriously underestimating what dogs are capable of as well as other animals.
 
There are a lot of dogs in the world.

Orca in that link is a Canine Partner - the way these dogs are trained is amazing and because of this (ill explain if you like), these dogs are always seeking to find new behaviours that reward them. Orca will have under gone a helluva lot of training in fact. All of it positive reward based training, using the same methods and theories that I use.

The bond CP dogs have with their handler is amazing - more so than other assistance dogs in many cases as CP dogs often have to carry on learning new skills and learn WITH their handler.

So its not surprising when something shocking happens as happened to Orca and owner, that Orca would do something fairly amazing - especially as Orca's handler is his entire world, ie an EXTREMELY valuable resource.

Without wishing to make what Orca did seem worthless, you also have to thihnk, its a lot ot do with how people react: Orca would have been wearing a purple CP coat, and thus instantly recognisable as an assistance dog.

Would he have saved his owner had he just been a 'stray' golden retriever?
Probably not, because most of us humans would have ignored him. But some of us WOULDNT ignore a dog in an assistance dogs coat, wed KNOW there was someone disabled without their dog, an emergency and we would encourage the dog to show us where they were.

There are reports of dogs who sit by their owner when they collapse and bark - is that conscience or is it panic and fear. Id say the latter personally.

There are also reports of dogs who attack their owners whilst they are fitting - lack of conscience? Or reaction to extreme fear - again, the latter.

You hear occasional reports of dogs who save their owners from fire - or do they? Do they simply know that the owner is the only one who can open the door and get them outside to safety? You dont hear of the ones who DONT save their owners, possibly because their owners slept through barking or told the dog to shuttup......

For each of these 'dog has human sentiments and emotions' stories, there are THOUSANDS of people whose dogs legged it whilst they were raped or murdered, dogs who burned to death in fires scrabbling to get out rather than waking the owner..... which are all perfectly normal actions for a dog to take.

And the other thing worth noting - if these actions were a sign that dogs know right from wrong, dogs have a conscience - theyd happen all the time.

They dont, and THAT is why they appear in newspapers - they are rare. Commonplace occurances are not worthy of newspaper articles.

It is purely OUR interpretation - the article linked to Orcas piece was a police dog, doing what he has been trained to do, but it is human nature to bring out the sentimental side of this.
Police dogs are put in danger on a daily basis in some places - NOT because they choose this, but because they are trained to do so.

Dogs will do a lot for us, but they do so because there is a reward in it for them - bomb dogs dont find bombs because its a nice thing to do. They find them because its a game, ditto police dogs, guide dogs, CP dogs, Hearing dogs, Guide dogs, SAR dogs.....

And the key to being able to train a dog to do such amazing things is to understand what they are and are not capable of, and train them using positive methods, rather than waste time and risk them fearing us with negative methods.


If you want some seriously good reading material about the way dogs think, Jean Donaldsons books 'Mine' and 'The Culture Clash' and 'Fight' are all very good.
Some behaviourists i really admire are Nina Bondarenko, John Fisher (note that he changed his mind on dominance theory before he died, very valuable reading).
Victoria Stilwell is doing an amazing job in her later series's of Its Me Or The Dog, especially given just how limiting a 30 minute tv show is.

There are many others - me and KathyM didnt make this stuff up - its out there and wiser, more experienced folk than us work this way.
 
"Second-level thinking, i.e., when animals analyze situations and recognize their implications, then act upon (or dismiss) what they have understood, may or may not involve consciousness of self. If the situation is totally independent of their own individuality (for example, for an antelope when a lion walks nearby) then an awareness of their own unique identity is not called for (only the need to include the knowledge of such things as their proximity to the lion, wind direction, etc., in their analysis). But, if, in order to correctly assess a situation, an animal needs to separate its identity from that of others (for example, when in a family or grooming group, where knowing one's social standing, and how others act and react toward one's presence and actions), then a degree of consciousness of self must be present."

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Thinking_And_..._And_Conscience

Different people's opinions...Mine is that dogs at least have some form a conscience. Having a conscience is part of developing a personality, being individual, and there's no doubt in my mind that dogs have individual personalities; shrimp on the other hand don't have a conscience and don't have personalities- no matter how many amano shrimp, cherry shrimp, ghost shrimp etc you buy they all work exactly the same way according to the instincts and rules of their species. They can't think outside of the box.
With dogs on the other hand, its completely different. You might buy two black labradors, both decended from the same parents, brought up/raised in exactly the same way, but both turn out to have completely different personalities. Labrador dog no.1 may grow up to be impulsive and excitable, while dog no.2 may grow up to be relaxed and friendly. To even start to develop a personality you must be aware of who you are at least to some extent, and other dogs must also be capable of understanding other dogs nature for their societies to work, and to be aware of who you are you must at least have some form of a conscience. Shrimp simply can't do this though since they don't have a conscience. I am more for the thought that to develop a personality, you must be aware of yourself and your actions, since the person who you are is greatly influenced by the world and people around you.

Another thought- i don't think we evolved a conscience as soon as we technically became modern humans. I believe that such a thing most likely started way back in our history when we had far more in common with much more primitive apes/animals. If apes can develop a conscience, then why shouldn't other highly intelligent sociable animals like dogs do as well?

Even with dolphins, they call each other by individual names. To do this they must have a conscience.

Some psychologists have the view that everything that people do in their day to day lives, whether consciously or unconsciously, they do to improve the chances of having sex and passing on their genes. For example, you buy a car because you like it and its convinient right? But unconsciously you may also be buying that car to make yourself appear more attractive to the opposite sex.
Such a way of thinking is looking at human actions a lot more simple in an animal and evolution way aspect of our nature, but whether you like it or not a lot of it can be very accurately applied to us since a lot of it you simply cannot argue with. The way you view dogs Canis-Equus is by understanding their behavior in a very basic sense, but this can also be applied to people a lot. In my honest opinion its whether you choose to question whether there's more to dogs or not that we can find out more about their behavior rather than judging them and confining them to simple formulas which are responsable for their actions.
 
Hi I don`t think I can help you but we have 2 dogs one 9 and one 2. Bonnie at 9 was a rescue dog and didn`t know how to dig a hole or bite and chew sticks .

The mad 2 year old terrier taught her lots of bad habits. Trying to train one dog is hard 2 is harder but at this stage we accept them as they are and have resorted to planting our trees in pots and protecting our other expensive garden shrubs with plastic shin guards.

Having already spent a small fortune in numerous dog beds etc. we now are quite delighted that if we plant or prune things out of sight of the dogs the plants tend to be left alone so maybe your dog believes its helping as I found that when planting seeds or new spring plants they would dig them up and run around the garden with them.

Good luck!
 
I think it's something we are just going to have to disagree on, until a dog can actually tell us, we're all surmising and working on theory or interpretation. The best animal psych or even people psych is only working on what they can see and what they can guess. They don't really know what's going on in someones head.

It's a learned behaviour for all of us. Actually learning it and remembering it and using it's rules is what defines us as having it. Finding your dog in their bed instead of running to greet you and saying, ok, what did you do? means that the animal is self aware and knows it has broken those rules and is waiting for a consequence. Nothing may ever happen. But that doesn't stop people or dogs feeling bad or regretting what they did.

Taking the literal definition (Dictionary.com) as "the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives", I personally believe they can know right from wrong, and conduct themselves accordingly, they know when they have been good or bad. That's only the same criterion a person has to fulfill to be assumed to have a conscience. As for "motives" - no, probably not. I don't think they think it through that much, but then a lot of people don't either.
 
Tokis - are you mixing up two words - conscious and conscience? As being aware of yourself is being conscious, not having a conscience. Might be everyone bickering over a simple mistake with words :good:
 

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