I got new fish! Questions

[cowgirluntamed]

Thanks Colin. I'll see what I could get. If I decided to go the route of buying the water....how would I do that? If it was straight RO or distilled, what is the best product to remineralize? Or should I just do like half well water (that's been filtered) and half RO/distilled?

I asked my mom to leave a bowl of water out for me to test tomorrow and I'm doing the same. Just to see if it's only on my end or the entire well. I will let you know the results tomorrow.

I just hope we can get this figured out. I will talk to my dad later too. I texted him to let him know.

 

[Colin_T]

Until you find out what is in the well water you might be better off using R/O (reverse osmosis) only, and add a Rift Lake water conditioner at about 1/4 strength to increase the general hardness to about 100ppm. You fill up a bucket with R/O water and add the Rift Lake salts and then aerate for 48 hours before using. You will have to check the pH because the mineral salts will raise the pH a bit.

If you run carbon and Ammogon in a bucket of well water for 24-48 hours then it should be safe to use as well. But you will have to check the ammonia levels and replace the carbon frequently. Once all the ammonia is gone from the water it should be safe to use. The Ammogon can be recharged by soaking in salt water but carbon should be replaced each time.

Maybe do a google search for water testing companies in your area and see what they charge to test a sample of well water for everything. You will need to get it checked for heavy metals, chemicals and agriculture runoff.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Fish dying after a water change would indicate something in the water. You should probably get your well water tested for everything you can, especially if you drink it.

Prime apparently binds the ammonia and makes it non toxic for about 24 hours. During that time the filters break it down and convert it into nitrite and nitrate.

The other option is a box filter with Wardley's Ammogon in it. Ammogon is a white ammonia absorbing granule that looks and feels like chalky gravel. If you have the water in a bucket you add a filter with Ammogon in and leave it to run for a bit, it will absorb the ammonia from the water.

You could also run Activated Carbon in a filter and see if that helps. If there is ammonia there might be something else in there that the carbon can remove.

In the mean time I would monitor the nitrate levels in the tank and only do a water change if the nitrates go over 40ppm. You can also try small water changes 10-20% and see how the fish do. But if the well water is contaminated you really need to find out what from.

We do drink it and have been for my entire life. But when I first started getting back into fish and bought the test kit, everything seemed fine. 5ppm nitrates and just a tiny bit of ammonia(which didn't seem to bother any fish at all). I don't know what could have contaminated it as we live at the top of a hill(I don't know how deep the well is) but we aren't next to any agriculture or anything that could leach that I know of.

I will monitor the tanks and only do changes as necessary nitrates wise right now. Is the Ammogon just zeolite? I can't find it here in the US but have found similar products if it's zeolite.

https://www.chewy.com/marineland-white-diamond-ammonia/dp/125934

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8230

Would either of these work?

Until you find out what is in the well water you might be better off using R/O (reverse osmosis) only, and add a Rift Lake water conditioner at about 1/4 strength to increase the general hardness to about 100ppm. You fill up a bucket with R/O water and add the Rift Lake salts and then aerate for 48 hours before using. You will have to check the pH because the mineral salts will raise the pH a bit.

If you run carbon and Ammogon in a bucket of well water for 24-48 hours then it should be safe to use as well. But you will have to check the ammonia levels and replace the carbon frequently. Once all the ammonia is gone from the water it should be safe to use. The Ammogon can be recharged by soaking in salt water but carbon should be replaced each time.

Maybe do a google search for water testing companies in your area and see what they charge to test a sample of well water for everything. You will need to get it checked for heavy metals, chemicals and agriculture runoff.

How often would the carbon need replaced and the ammonia stuff recharged? Everytime or every other? I would rather use the well water if possible than haul a bunch(though I am keeping it in mind) from the store. That's a lot of water!

But...if I did the RO, my tanks have harder water right now(probably good enough for most rift lake cichlids to be honest). Would there need to be an adjustment period for the fish? If so, how would I go about it? (I love my tetras....so softer water I wouldn't complain about and it would open up even more of them for me! Lol). If I go this route I will probably ask more questions....lol. either way I will need trash cans and possibly heaters and power heads or filters depending.....so just trying to get prepared!

 

[Colin_T]

I can't remember if zeolite is the same as ammogon but the name sounds familiar. Wardley's Ammogon is what we have in Australia and it is designed to absorb ammonia from water. You recharge it in saltwater. I think zeolite is the same thing but different name.

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I would recharge the ammogon/ zeolite after each bucket of water. But you can monitor the ammonia levels in the water and recharge the ammogon when the ammonia is no longer being absorbed. Basically you will still have an ammonia reading 24 hours after filtering the water through the ammogon/ zeolite.

Either of the two links you provided have a similar (if not the same) product to the ammogon, and would be fine to use.

Carbon, depends on how much you use. If you have a lot of carbon in the bucket of water you could probably use it 5 or 6 times, maybe more. If you only have a bit of carbon then replace it with each new bucket of water.
If you do keep carbon to re-use it on another bucket of water, keep it wet. Basically after you have had it in the bucket for 48 hours, put it in a small container of that water and put a lid on it. If carbon dries out after being used it is stuffed and you throw it away.

The only problem with using carbon several times is you can't tell whether or not it is full. The water might not have any heavy metals in and the carbon could last for months because there is nothing in the water to absorb. However, it could fill up after being used in one bucket and then do nothing the next few times it is used.

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If you do use R/O water you will need to do small water changes over a period of a month or more to slowly reduce the hardness. If you mix 50% well water with 50% R/O then you could do bigger water changes but you still only want to reduce it slowly.

The easiest way to use carbon or ammogon/ zeolite is to use an air pump and a square plastic box filter. You put some shadecloth or fine screen inside on the bottom of the box filter and then fill the filter up with carbon or ammogon/ zeolite. Put the lid on and a rubber band (because the lids never stay on), and put it in the bucket of water. If you get a big 200 litre (50gallon) plastic storage container, you can make up more water and have some left over. When you aren't using the container you can put it away somewhere.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I can't remember if zeolite is the same as ammogon but the name sounds familiar. Wardley's Ammogon is what we have in Australia and it is designed to absorb ammonia from water. You recharge it in saltwater. I think zeolite is the same thing but different name.

-----------------------
I would recharge the ammogon/ zeolite after each bucket of water. But you can monitor the ammonia levels in the water and recharge the ammogon when the ammonia is no longer being absorbed. Basically you will still have an ammonia reading 24 hours after filtering the water through the ammogon/ zeolite.

Either of the two links you provided have a similar (if not the same) product to the ammogon, and would be fine to use.

Carbon, depends on how much you use. If you have a lot of carbon in the bucket of water you could probably use it 5 or 6 times, maybe more. If you only have a bit of carbon then replace it with each new bucket of water.
If you do keep carbon to re-use it on another bucket of water, keep it wet. Basically after you have had it in the bucket for 48 hours, put it in a small container of that water and put a lid on it. If carbon dries out after being used it is stuffed and you throw it away.

The only problem with using carbon several times is you can't tell whether or not it is full. The water might not have any heavy metals in and the carbon could last for months because there is nothing in the water to absorb. However, it could fill up after being used in one bucket and then do nothing the next few times it is used.

-----------------------
If you do use R/O water you will need to do small water changes over a period of a month or more to slowly reduce the hardness. If you mix 50% well water with 50% R/O then you could do bigger water changes but you still only want to reduce it slowly.

The easiest way to use carbon or ammogon/ zeolite is to use an air pump and a square plastic box filter. You put some shadecloth or fine screen inside on the bottom of the box filter and then fill the filter up with carbon or ammogon/ zeolite. Put the lid on and a rubber band (because the lids never stay on), and put it in the bucket of water. If you get a big 200 litre (50gallon) plastic storage container, you can make up more water and have some left over. When you aren't using the container you can put it away somewhere.

Cool. Thanks for the info yet again Colin! I think I will try filtering my water first and see what happens. I did figure about the hang on back filter and use it with an air stone since it needs to be aerated anyway for the pH. Though I would also need to get a submersible pump to pump the water back to the tank too. So much to think about but at least I can get it done. Now just to figure out where I can put these cans/totes while the water is being filtered.....lol.

Oh, on the brine solution....how much salt to water do I need to use for recharging? And do I need to soak it in fresh water afterwards to let the salt leach out or how does that work?

 

[Colin_T]

seawater strength to soak it, and any salt (sodium chloride) will work. eg: rock salt, sea salt, swimming pool salt.

the easiest way to recharge it is to pick the filter up as it is, and move it from the freshwater container into salt water and let it bubble away for 24 hours. Then rinse it off (quick rinse with fresh water) and then put it into another container of fresh water to remove the ammonia.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

seawater strength to soak it, and any salt (sodium chloride) will work. eg: rock salt, sea salt, swimming pool salt.

the easiest way to recharge it is to pick the filter up as it is, and move it from the freshwater container into salt water and let it bubble away for 24 hours. Then rinse it off (quick rinse with fresh water) and then put it into another container of fresh water to remove the ammonia.

Thanks! Though now I have a conundrum.....I did some testing as I mentioned in another part of this thread. Now, I used water from my kitchen sink which is closer to the well. For water changes I normally use the bathroom sink. Anyway my mom also set water out so I could test it. Both of them were left out over night, mine with a lid, hers without. Here are the results.

My house tap
Low ph 7.5
Ammonia-0.25 (I've always just barely registered this number and it's never bothered the fish).
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-5
Gh-13 to 14
Kh-12

My mom's house tap
Ph- 8.3 to 8.4
Ammonia- 0.25
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0 (maybe a little more but it wasn't 5)
Gh- 17 to 18
Kh- 14
(The last two I have tested out of my own tap before around that number but the tanks were always lower.)

So....just to see, I also did a few tests from my mom's water straight from the tap without sitting over night.

Low ph of 7.5
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.
I didn't test gh and kh again.


So.....now I'm not so sure it's the well. I put out two bowls of water from the cold water tap from my bathroom, one with a lid and one without. I'm going to test those tomorrow after work. Depending on that...I will test from the hot water tap the same way. Maybe it's something in my pipes or my water heater? Could that happen if it's not the well?

The glowlights that were swimming funny are actually still alive, just not swimming now. One is laying on the sand and another is in a plant. So...doubt they will make it but figured I'd leave them me at the moment.

 

[Colin_T]

Are you sure both houses are getting water from the same well?
Because they should have the same readings and you have different readings.

Are both houses the same age or is one older than the other?

Do both houses have the same type of water pipes?

An old hot water system might be falling apart or contaminated with something and that could affect the water.

If something has fallen into the well (small animal, bird) that could cause the ammonia.

Are you using liquid or paper test kits?
Liquid test kits are more accurate than paper.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Are you sure both houses are getting water from the same well?
Because they should have the same readings and you have different readings.

Are both houses the same age or is one older than the other?

Do both houses have the same type of water pipes?

An old hot water system might be falling apart or contaminated with something and that could affect the water.

If something has fallen into the well (small animal, bird) that could cause the ammonia.

Are you using liquid or paper test kits?
Liquid test kits are more accurate than paper.

Yes, I am absolutely sure they are on the same well. My house is quite a bit older than the other.

I'm not sure about the pipes or the age of the water heater but I will ask my dad in the morning.

I'm using the liquid freshwater master test kit from API as well as the liquid gh/kh from API too.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

@Colin_T

So my dad thinks that the pipes under the house is pvc. But isn't sure about what goes into the ground to the well. I may try to look under the house soon but....there's spiders.....lol. the water heater is under 10 years old but he said it may need to be emptied and flushed. But that it could leak trying to put the cap back on where the hose goes due to lime scale build up.

Anyway....here are the results of my bathroom sink cold water with and without a lid.

With a lid
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia- 0.25
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 10-20
Gh- 18
Kh-14

Without a lid
Ph- 8.2
Ammonia- 0.25
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 10-20
Gh- 19
Kh-16


So....still seems odd that I get some differing results on the gh and kh...and the only difference was a bowl with or without a lid sitting out over night! Ph I can understand...but the others?

Next test will be in a couple of days probably on the hot water more than likely just without a lid.

Right now I think I may just try to filter the water ahead of time and not buy any. That cost would add up.....why do I have to live tetras and have hard water? Such is life.....

 

[Colin_T]

Do you have access to the well water without using the taps in the house?
eg: drop a bucket down the well, or is it a covered bore?

If you could check the water from the actual well, rather than after it has been through the pipes and taps in the house, it might give more insight into what is going on.

The pH going up in the container without the lid would suggest carbon dioxide is being released and oxygen is getting in, but I would think that would affect KH or GH.

The other option would be the test kits are faulty and giving odd readings. Next time you visit a pet shop perhaps take a sample of well water and your test kits and get the shop to test and you test at the same time.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Do you have access to the well water without using the taps in the house?
eg: drop a bucket down the well, or is it a covered bore?

If you could check the water from the actual well, rather than after it has been through the pipes and taps in the house, it might give more insight into what is going on.

The pH going up in the container without the lid would suggest carbon dioxide is being released and oxygen is getting in, but I would think that would affect KH or GH.

The other option would be the test kits are faulty and giving odd readings. Next time you visit a pet shop perhaps take a sample of well water and your test kits and get the shop to test and you test at the same time.

I don't think I can get water from the actual well itself but there is an outside faucet on the outside of the well house. Would that work?

I don't think it's the test kits. I want to say they are pretty new(I'm not home so can't check the date). I will look later.

Curious....I really didn't want to buy an RO/DI filter but with the hardness being what it is, it kind of worries me for my fish. Would one of these be an option? Should I get a TDS meter to check my water first? They have them for $10. Here is one I was looking at but some of the comments have said the cartridge doesn't last long if the TDS is real high. But I would think something like this, just hooked up to my bathroom sink, may be the best option in the long run as it would cost a lot to buy water. I don't know anything about these kinds of filters so not sure what the best one would be. Then I would just have to mix it up to get to the desired pH and hardness and such. Here is the unit I was looking at(more for curiosity than anything).

https://www.chewy.com/aquatic-life-ro-buddie-four-stage/dp/146154

 

[Colin_T]

You can try testing the water from the tap on the side of the well. See if it's different.

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When you test the water, do you rinse the phials out in some water first?
And do you use the stopper cap on the top of the phial or do you use your finger? Skin oils can affect the readings so use the stopped cap.

----------------------
The R/O (reverse osmosis) unit in the link looks alright. All R/O units create a lot of waste water, which isn't a problem if you have your own water supply. But for those paying for mains water, they waste 50% or more of the water that goes through them. Basically for every 1 litre of pure water they make, they create at least 1 litre of waste water.

They simply push water through various cartridges containing very fine membranes and other substances in an attempt to remove chemicals and minerals from the water. Good units will remove 99.9% of anything in the water leaving almost pure water with no mineral content and a neutral pH (7.0).

The minerals are removed with the membranes, whereas chemicals are removed with carbon. You can have ammogon/ zeolite and even nitrate absorbing substances fitted in them too, but normally it's just a prefilter to screen out course particles, then membranes and carbon.

You can buy all types of normal water filters to run inline with the R/O units and these can help the membranes and chemical removal media last longer. You just connect the normal water filters before the R/O unit and let the normal filter screen out the particulates and heavy metals leaving cleaner water to go through the R/O unit that can remove the minerals.

You should be able to change the media in them and use aftermarket stuff, especially for carbon and ammogon/ zeolite. Find a company online that sells Highly Activated Carbon or Activated Carbon (preferably highly activated) in 10kg (22pound) bags. Then use that to replace the stuff in the R/O unit. Get a small fine carbon too rather than big course chunks. Same deal with ammogon/ zeolite.
*NB* Rinse all carbon and zeolite products before using them to get rid of the dust on them.

Most units need to be back flushed regularly and you simply take the inlet hose and put it on the outlet and let it run for a bit. I don't know if they still do this but 20 years ago it was the norm.

----------------------
I wouldn't bother with a TDS meter. You have a pH and mineral issue and a TDS meter won't help with that.

You could get your water checked for salt (sodium chloride). Most good pet shops that sell marine fish have a refractometer to measure the salinity in sea water. They are pretty accurate but if there was any major salt in your water you should taste it.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

You can try testing the water from the tap on the side of the well. See if it's different.

----------------------
When you test the water, do you rinse the phials out in some water first?
And do you use the stopper cap on the top of the phial or do you use your finger? Skin oils can affect the readings so use the stopped cap.

----------------------
The R/O (reverse osmosis) unit in the link looks alright. All R/O units create a lot of waste water, which isn't a problem if you have your own water supply. But for those paying for mains water, they waste 50% or more of the water that goes through them. Basically for every 1 litre of pure water they make, they create at least 1 litre of waste water.

They simply push water through various cartridges containing very fine membranes and other substances in an attempt to remove chemicals and minerals from the water. Good units will remove 99.9% of anything in the water leaving almost pure water with no mineral content and a neutral pH (7.0).

The minerals are removed with the membranes, whereas chemicals are removed with carbon. You can have ammogon/ zeolite and even nitrate absorbing substances fitted in them too, but normally it's just a prefilter to screen out course particles, then membranes and carbon.

You can buy all types of normal water filters to run inline with the R/O units and these can help the membranes and chemical removal media last longer. You just connect the normal water filters before the R/O unit and let the normal filter screen out the particulates and heavy metals leaving cleaner water to go through the R/O unit that can remove the minerals.

You should be able to change the media in them and use aftermarket stuff, especially for carbon and ammogon/ zeolite. Find a company online that sells Highly Activated Carbon or Activated Carbon (preferably highly activated) in 10kg (22pound) bags. Then use that to replace the stuff in the R/O unit. Get a small fine carbon too rather than big course chunks. Same deal with ammogon/ zeolite.
*NB* Rinse all carbon and zeolite products before using them to get rid of the dust on them.

Most units need to be back flushed regularly and you simply take the inlet hose and put it on the outlet and let it run for a bit. I don't know if they still do this but 20 years ago it was the norm.

----------------------
I wouldn't bother with a TDS meter. You have a pH and mineral issue and a TDS meter won't help with that.

You could get your water checked for salt (sodium chloride). Most good pet shops that sell marine fish have a refractometer to measure the salinity in sea water. They are pretty accurate but if there was any major salt in your water you should taste it.

I rinse the tubes out with tap water after I use them, then let them dry out. For the gh and kh I do actually use my finger. Or at least for these tests I did. When using the cap, I have water stay in the lid and it ends up all over the outside of the tube and not in it....when I shake for the nitrate test, the cap is on but water still gets out of it.


Even with the well, I really didn't want to go with an R/O unit because of the amount of water it wastes. I don't like wasting water like that. I actually looked up distillers and they were way more pricey than I can afford! Lol. I don't know of any other way except buying and that's a big expense there. It's also twice as much to buy a gallon of distilled water as it is to use the R/O unit in the store. I'm just not sure what to do really unless I really cut down on water changes and not do them every week....

And I haven't ever tasted salt in the water at all. My marigolds thrive on it so I think I'm fine where salinity is concerned.

 

[Colin_T]

You want to avoid getting testing solution on your skin because they are all toxic. Put a piece of plastic wrap over the lid and then put your thumb/ finger over the top so the chemicals don't come in contact with your skin.

-----------------------
You can distill water using the sun. Get a large plastic storage container (the dark colours work better so get black if you can). If you can't get black containers, just spray paint the outside of some clear containers black or wrap them in black plastic when out in the sun. Put the container in the sun or a warm room and half fill it with water. Get a clean 10 litre (2.5 gallon) bucket and add a few river rocks to it. Put the bucket in the water in the plastic storage container. The river rocks hold the bucket down in the water and stop it moving about. Put the lid on the plastic storage container and put a small rock on top of the lid near the centre.

As the water in the plastic storage container evaporates, the water vapour condenses on the lid and runs towards the centre of the lid due to the rock on top. It collects in the centre of the lid and drips into the empty bucket in the water. When the bucket is full, pour it into a water holding tank and you have pure distilled water. Then replace the bucket and top up the storage container.

The warmer the water the faster it works, so using a black container in the sun will create more distilled water faster. Having the water in a warm room helps, and you can use an aquarium heater to warm the water too. If you do use an aquarium heater, make sure it remains underwater at all times and the evaporating water does not leave it exposed to the air.

Even on an average property you could have a few containers doing this and collect a heap of distilled water, then use it 50/50 (or whatever combo you like) with well water.