I Don't Get It !!

[sylvia]

But abstract - what you described in the second half of your post is reasons people refuse to return fish even when they should.

And the animals being abandoned - I think they are abandoned for the same reasons as fish but at least a dog wouldn't be considered replaceable by most people and at least people would think twice before getting rid of a child...

webcat5 - abstract has a point, other pets are abandoned too, so even if people started treating fish like real pets, some of these people would still be getting rid of them. But, like I said, maybe they'd be thinking twice beforehand.

As for all those resources people have available to them, I think it's a shame so many of those can be mis-leading. That's why (Blue LObster) you should collect information from several sources and take your time (like clutterydrawer said) to find out more than just what's "listed" on one site and weigh it all up and see what seems more likely. I think a lot of us want to believe things whether or not they seem realistic because we are selfish and had our hopes set on specific fish. That's where this board would come in handy for those of us who actualy want advise and to do the best for our fish. Other people's experiences are a great help as back-up to your own research so you can see what sources are accurate and which are mis-leading or just completely wrong.

Oh and I think when you keep fish like mbuna (like Ferris) it's fair to have to sometimes return fish because it comes down to the individual fish being a problem - not the species as a whole. When people buy a fish knowing it won't work or just wanting to "experiment" because they didn't do enough research, it is realy quite irresponsible IMO.

 

[laboul]

THe basic question here is: How much devotion should one shows to pets? What is clear from this thread is that we are all at a point along a continuum. Ask yourself: how much would you invest to save a pet dog's life? Cat? Fish? Shrimp?

How can you possibly compare abandoning a fish with abandoning a dog or a child? I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. It's just human nature to bond more closely with closer relatives. First come human relatives, then other humans, then other warm blooded vertebrates, other vertebrates like fish, and finally, invertebrates. If you feel otherwise, that's great, but I don't. Imagine a world in which we by law protected earthworms, mosquitoes, and zooplankton, etc. They are "living, feeling organisms" too... I hear this kind of talk all the time without people actually thinking about the implications.

I'm not advocating animal abuse or irresonsible purchases. I lost a little mollie fry today and feel awful. I think it would be great if everyone felt as obligated to their fish as I do. But I'd feel a lot more awful if my dog died because there's an enormous investment there and I have a closer bond. Please, people, don't give me this crap about, "But the fish is a life, too." We all draw the line somewhere as to how attached we get to certain living things. Let's just accept that people are at where they are at. This forum is great at informing people and encouraging proper behavior, but the only way to CONTROL peoples' behavior in this regard is with ENFORCED legislation. Even that barely works. And there certainly isn't much of it as regards fish being sold as pets.

One more thing... people return dogs all the time. Especially if bought from a reputable breeder and something goes wrong health-wise with the dog. Maybe that sounds cruel or inhumane or irresponsible, but if there are no LAWS, we draw our own standards about it. That's life.

 

[parker313]

I agree with laboul, I think it's pretty silly to compare a fish to a dog or a relative...

I have returned fish and am not the least bit ashamed.

The first time was shortly after I got my tank up and running. I had started my tank with rosy barbs but after I got a bit into it, I decided I wanted to go in a different direction. So, I returned all 6 of my barbs for something else.

Another incident was when I had a school of rainbowfish. Rainbowfish are supposed to be great community fish but mine were NOT. I had 2 angels in with them and they killed one and were working on the other before I rescued and returned it. I swapped it out for 2 severums. Darned if one of the sevs didn't start schooling with the rainbows and they all turned on the other. That was the final straw for them - I got all of the rainbows and the 2 sevs and they all went back.

Unfortunately after that (some time past), a mystery toxin got introduced to my tank and I kept losing fish. Once I thought I finally had the toxin taken care of, I wanted to get a good, hardy fish to test and make sure (whatever toxin it was wasn't something that registered on tests). I got some giant danios. After I had them 2 wks successfully, they went back to the store in exchange for a pair of kribs.

I'm lucky that I have a great LFS who has no problem taking fish back and I love that it gives me the freedom to experiment with different types of fish and different types of communities.

I like the setup I have now and have no plans to return any of the fish I currently have but I like knowing the option is there.

--Kristin

PS - I'd rather see a fish returned to the LFS instead of flushed!!

 

[gale]

The Point that I am trying to make is that with all the different resorces out there for people to use, wheather it be a computer or books, there is absolutly no reason for people to be returning fish to thier LFS or sending them down the loo. Like I said this amazes me ( and maybe frusturates me a little ).

The day people start to understand that your fish are a pet, just like any other kind of pet, will be a happy one for me.

When I first bought a fishtank, about 11 yrs ago, I didn't have any computer or internet (didn't even know it existed) and I live in a small town with one bookstore that has no pet books to speak of and the lfs had one book which I bought, but it didn't have much information. Very very basic and didn't go into the fish species much, mainly how to set up and maintain a tank. The lfs sold me the following fish (I had no clue and was confident that the lfs employee knew what he was doing. He did not) anyway i ended up with 2 guppies (1 male, 1 female), 2 platies (1 male, 1 female) 2 painted glass (sorry, didn't know at the time that they were dyed and the lfs naturally didn't tell me), 1 clown loach, 1 common pleco, 4 neon tetras, 1 albino cory cat and 1 male betta. The tank is a 20 long and as you can see, this might be a compatible combo (they did tell me which fish were aggressive and we didn't buy any of those) but some not suitable for the size of the tank and not in groups as some should have been. Had I discovered shortly after about all the rights and wrongs I would have absolutely returned or exchanged some of the fish for other ones.

Granted, everyone who posts here has plenty of ways to research fish.

 

[sylvia]

laboul, I'm curious - do you have a dog? If yes, do you love your dog as much as say your mother or a sibling? This is just me being curious here.

I do agree partly with a lot of what you say. Yes, it is human nature etc etc, but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean we shouldn't TRY to care for our fish as we would a child. Abandoning a child - or a dog, cat, parrot could all be arguably human nature too but no one would say it's right. Acting like a fish is a toy is completely irresponsible regardless of how you look at it. You could compare it to a machine (not even alive) if that seems better to you - what if someone goes out and buys a car and tries to see at what speed crashing into a brick wall would set off the air bags...? Or something crazy like that... I know the parallels are vague but the point is that in both cases you are abusing something valuable - in the case of the fish it is a life and in the case of the car it is money. With the fish there's the moral side of it too though as you chose to buy the fish and took on the responsibility of keeping it alive and hopefuly allowing it to thrive in an unatural environment. Comparing a fish to a dog isn't realy that far-fetched if you are open-minded though the value we place on them is admitedly different but when it comes down to it they are both pets and both living. Earthworms and mosquitos are not kept by people as pets, not taken from the wild without asking for it and bred in captivity and kept in a tank all their lives. The point isn't that we should stop keeping fish BTW - just that we should at least TRY to keep them as best we can and treating them as replaceable toys we can purchase and return and exchange is not the way to go about doing this.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

i agree with most of your point sylvia, but i think laboul is largely responding to other threads that have appeared periodically where people explicitly equate human life to fish/rodent life.

i personally am disturbed by posts equating oscars eating feeder fish with sharks eating people. statements like that are regularly banded around here and i always feel that these claims are devaluations of human life. very few fish will ever care if you love them, but very few people won't.

while i believe that in accepting a creature as a "pet", we accept the responsibility of its care and stewardship, i cannot equate this responsibility with our obligations towards our fellow men. i believe that people are to be cared for uniquely and above other animals. if faced between the life of a dog and a murderer, i would have to chose the murderer because a man can be redeemed, a man can acknowledge wrongdoing and turn towards right. to make the life of the dog the same as the life of a man is foreign to me. i don't think i could ever understand it.

 

[NinjaSmurf]

Sometimes people return or sell fish because it doesn't turn out to be what they needed. I researched my pictus long before I bought it, yet its personality didn't suit what I was looking for, and there was no way for me to know this before getting it. There are plenty of people who state how much they love their fish, how they love the personality of that type of fish, yet someone else who gets one thinking about the rave reviews they read finds out that they aren't something that they like.

Returning fish isn't bad, I mean, if you bought them someone else will. They don't put fish to sleep like they do a lot of animals at shelters, there is no comparison.

And no offense, but there are plenty of people who get rid of animals who really should get rid of them, not everyone treats them like garbage, if you have a dog that turns out to not like children, and you have kids, then you shouldn't have the dog, and it should get a home with people who don't have kids. Somtimes as much as you don't want to you have to find the animal a new home, and people shouldn't think of you as treating them like toys just because you have to get rid of them.

 

[laboul]

laboul, I'm curious - do you have a dog? If yes, do you love your dog as much as say your mother or a sibling? This is just me being curious here.

Of course I don't love my dog as much as I love my mother or my sister. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at!? Should I?

Yes, I do actually have a dog. I have spent thousands of dollars on 3 surgeries on Moses to save his life each time. He's still with me but I don't know if I'm going to make that kind of financial sacrifice next time. I'm sure there are people who would spend more than I have and have even more surgeries. ON the other hand, there would have been people who have had him euthanized or returned them to a breeder the first time they had the problem! Would that make them irresponsible pet owners? Not necessarily.

That's the point of my previous post. You can't hold every other pet owner to the same standards you hold for yourself. (Well, you can and if you do you're going to be sorely disappointed in humanity!) I totally agree that we should all treat our pets the best we can. But that means different things to different people and we are all learning here.... and it goes without saying that everyone has slightly different standards. I returned fish twice, the first was 4 danios because they were in a 10 gallon and I realized they should be in at least a 20. I had actually read on this forum it was okay to put them in a 10 in a group of 4. Then after doing more reading ont he forum I found out otherwise. The second was that I returned an aggressive black mollies that was picking on another silver molly I had saved from 2 diseases... I was much more attached to the silver mollie. I don't think there was anything wrong with what I did. We all have a limited amount of time here to spend hours on the internet doing research, not to mention the fact that there are conflicting opinions on this forum sometimes.

 

[abstract]

..and for the record i was obviously not comparing a loved one to a pet....i was merely stating the fact that certain (types) of humans are able to give away for adoption, treat poorly, abuse, etc children, for example...so, many times this mistreatment and lack of knowledge altogether of their pets stems from something deeper than the above mentioned points....

 

[laboul]

so, many times this mistreatment and lack of knowledge altogether of their pets stems from something deeper than the above mentioned points....

Exactly.. Most of these people are beyond hope.

 

[fishman 1]

I have read a few of the posts as i was browsing through this topic.
I personally like it when someone returns their fish to the LFS as i find it a great way to get some very nice fish.
Only last weekend I picked up a very nice danio pathirana which someone had returned along with the other contents of this persons fish tank.
This is also a good way to get a more mature fish rather than sometimes a less colourful little one.
It also saves some people flushing them (which i think has already been mentioned).
In the past I have saved fish from this fate by taking fish in and then re-homing them with other aquarists.

 

[phishluvr]

I personally like it when someone returns their fish to the LFS as i find it a great way to get some very nice fish.

ditto! Five of my gouramis were exchanged fish. It was great because they already got along with eachother and have been the hardiest fish while my tank had to recycle after a move.

I don't think the lfs minds either as they get them free or at substanial discounts and then sell them full price... or more for something like adult discus or oscars. And the fish are getting a new home with an owner who probably gives them more attention and better environment. everyone's happy

 

[Mr Miagi]

I think returning a fish is far greater and far out ways leaving the fish to die a horrable death in an un-suitable tank which it cant fit in.

I have retured fish in the past. Not for incompatablility reasons because i just went out a bought one cause it looked "cool!" They out-grew my tank and i knew it was time to sell them back. No probs.

I think you really need to view this entire issue from all perspectives to get the ful and proper picture. Dont just jump to conclusions because someone has taken a fish back. I view it as somewhat of a positive thing when done the right way.

PS, As for ppl who dont research, i find it soo annoying too.

 

[sylvia]

laboul the question I asked wasn't getting anywhere I just honestly wanted to know.

Also, I do agree with what you said in that last post and I think your reasons for returning the fish were fine.

What annoys me is when people get a fish knowing full well that they cannot keep it or not having bothered to research though they know they should have (not just having been mis-lead or expecting the LFS to know which you cannot blame anyone for thinking).

Also, I think a lot of people have mis-understood what I meant by 'replaceable' and 'toy'. As I've said already in my first post, I'm fine with many of the reasons people return fish. I only don't like it when they do it for selfish reasons and without considering the fish' well being at all.

As for 'my standards', I accept and would be the first to admit that I am not perfect but that no one else is either and I would not expect or even want everyone else to agree with me or follow my morals as that would make for a very boring world indeed. None the less, I would expect anyone with a little sense and compassion to at least TRY to put their pet's or companion's needs (regardless of species) before their own desires and TRY to do the right thing. I wouldn't ask for anything more.

Anyway, I'm going on holiday now

 

[vantgE]

I know with my fish i don't like returning them but will and have had to return a few not for lack of reseaqrch but specific changeing unavoidable circumstances,

Mbuna africans need to be kept in 3 to one female to male ratios that is impossible to distinguish at buying size so the average keeper buys seven or so and returns any extra males as i have doen,

Also some fish have been createing problems in my cichlid tank and although the stocking sheme seems good on paper it would have been impossible to predict that the indivuidual fishes don't like each other i will once i decide exactly what to do be returning more fish