Hydrogen Peroxide?

[eaglesaquarium]

As for hydrogen peroxide, I was watching a program last evening on the developments in the submarine made by the Germans during the Second World War.  A scientist discovered that hydrogen peroxide could be used as a fuel for submarines, in place of diesel (oil/gas), and it meant that the submarine did not have to surface for air.  The experimental submarine, which did work, was small, and fortunately for the allies the war ended before the Nazis were able to perfect this.  But the point is that if a substance will power a submarine, is it OK to get it inside the fish?

 
Byron, you are setting up a false equivalence with this question.  Oxygen is one of the most volatile elements in the world, yet this highly volatile substance MUST be present for the fish to survive.  
 
Your point stands on its own merit and the presence of hydrogen peroxide in the aquarium is a potential threat.  If used in low enough dosages it proves to be non-lethal.  But, merely adding something to our tanks that doesn't prove lethal does not mean that it does not affect them, or that prolonged exposure won't cause problems down the road.  In my own case, I have never used hydrogen peroxide in the tank while the fish were still in it, because I was afraid of the potential damage it could do to their gills if the fish came into the localized area where it was to be used.  So, I've never done it. 

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Not sure how to do quotes, sorry!

"On the algae issue, this is caused by am imbalance in the light/nutrients. Unless you correct whatever is out, no amount of any treatment will work, as the algae will only return.

Byron."


I didn't start getting hair algae until I dosed the fertilizers. Should I just do a bunch of water changes to get most of it out of there? Should I dig up the root tabs as well and take them out? I know we talked about this in another thread I had, I think in the discussion forum. You say the flourish root tabs don't leach into the water column. So maybe my plants don't need the liquid stuff so is causing algae to grow(aqueon plant food) or else they can't just use it fast enough. Would this be a good route to go? I can still lower the time my light is on if I need to if you think this might help.

(Point taken on the rest of it. I had read up alot on it and people had success. I posted here before I dosed but nobody replied about it so I went ahead and did the 2 small doses. Didn't work for me so it either wasn't enough to kill the algae or something. I didn't want to dose more for obvious reasons.)

 

[Byron]

Not sure how to do quotes, sorry!

"On the algae issue, this is caused by am imbalance in the light/nutrients. Unless you correct whatever is out, no amount of any treatment will work, as the algae will only return.

Byron."


I didn't start getting hair algae until I dosed the fertilizers. Should I just do a bunch of water changes to get most of it out of there? Should I dig up the root tabs as well and take them out? I know we talked about this in another thread I had, I think in the discussion forum. You say the flourish root tabs don't leach into the water column. So maybe my plants don't need the liquid stuff so is causing algae to grow(aqueon plant food) or else they can't just use it fast enough. Would this be a good route to go? I can still lower the time my light is on if I need to if you think this might help.

(Point taken on the rest of it. I had read up alot on it and people had success. I posted here before I dosed but nobody replied about it so I went ahead and did the 2 small doses. Didn't work for me so it either wasn't enough to kill the algae or something. I didn't want to dose more for obvious reasons.)

 
I thought this sounded familiar, but when one is active in several threads on similar topics, it can get muddled at least for me to remember who is what or to whom I explained this or that.
 
On the Flourish Tabs, Seachem claim they do not release nutrients into the water column except as plants need them, and in my own situation where I have reduced liquid fertilisers significantly and increased the Flourish substrate tabs I have not seen algae increase like it does with the liquids, so I am inclined to accept this.
 
Any product that is strong enough to kill algae is almost certain to be problematic for plants, and of course fish will be affected regardless.  So finding the cause and restoring the balance is safer, and will be successful.  It is not always easy to find the balance, that is the tricky part.
 
I have had brush algae issues from time to time.  In some cases, excessive fertilisers was definitely the cause, and in others it was too long a duration in lighting.  Light intensity is crucial in the balance, and once the intensity is roughly balanced to the needs of the specific plants and the nutrient availability, duration can be used to fine tune things.
 
Byron.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I can understand about posting alot. I see you all over the place! Lol. Love learning from what you put.

Anyway, I think I have my plan then. No more liquid fertilizers for the time being. Keep the lighting duration down and keep going down with it if no improvement.

Before the ferts, I only started to get some algae when my bristlenose got sick. Started to get a brownish red algae, slow growing, on my anubias plants and the sides of the tank. With the ferts came hair algae and some sort of green algae.

I wish I knew more about the color spectrum the plants like. I know they like all of them but some more than others. I can change my led light to suit it. Red, green, blue, white...up down and all around. Lol. Oh well, maybe that will come in time too! I'll just leave it where I have it now. Thanks again Byron.

 

[StevenF]

 
 
Anyway, I think I have my plan then. No more liquid fertilizers for the time being

As I stated much earlier in this post you were using Aqueon plant food which doesn't have copper.  My own experience with this product and RO water that without copper your plant growth will  be minimal and won't be able to use all of the fertilizer you add.  The Algae on the other hand did very well with it.
 
 Try going without fertilizers is OK and if it works great. But it doesn't work for every one if you do find you need fertilizer I would suggest using SeaChem Flourish comprehensive which is almost identical to Aqueon except it also has copper.  

 

[Byron]

Just wondering where the "RO" bit came from...in post #1 the source water is described as hard (well water source).  I'm not saying this includes copper, it may or may not, but it is mineralized water, not RO.
 
Of course, hard water promotes algae too, in some circumstances, because the algae can use the minerals the plants may not be able to.
 
I agree on the comprehensive supplement, but with caution.  I think you need to ID the likely cause of the algae, and this can take some experimenting.  I have done this over a period of several weeks by lessening this, then lessening something else, then reducing light duration...once you find the cause and eliminate it, problem solved.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

StevenF has RO water and that was his experience with it. Post #4. His RO water needed fertilizer for the plants and he got hair algae with the aqueon plant food. He found it didn't have copper but when he tried the flourish comprehensive, that has copper, no more algae.

Whether that's my problem or not, I don't know. It's too expensive to send my water to a lab to be tested. And the tests you can get online won't really say what you have. So I'm sort of stuck with the guessing. Maybe I can try the comprehensive. Though I think if I even did that I would do smaller doses throughout the week rather than all at once. I still need to get some api water conditioner too.

I do think this came about after adding the aqueon. But part of it could be my light as well. I come to this because I had my 10 gallon set up as a plant only tank before the guppies. It had just a regular marineland led light(not plant light) and I used this aqueon stuff without algae growth. I now have a fluval aquasky led but didn't start getting the hair algae until I dosed with the aqueon stuff. So I do think it boils down to the light and this fertilizer. Now I just have to find a combination that works....lol.

 

[NickAu]

 
I do think this came about after adding the aqueon.

I tend to agree.
 
 I run the lights on my tanks 12 hours a day, But then again I do not use any Ferterlizer, or CO2, Nor do I vacuum the substrate. I have soft water with a PH of 6.8 to 7 and I do not have algae issues.
 
Like I always say keep it low tech keep it simple and you have no problems.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Just an update...have not done a water change yet. I did reduce the lightning down to 10 hours on. I wasn't sure...still not...but I'm almost thinking the growth of it has stopped! Either the two hour change worked, or maybe the nutrients got used up from the fertilizer. Now..my water sprite is still covered in stringy hair stuff, but I'm not sure if it's alive or dead(the algae that is). I've tried tumbling it around in the water but it won't come off of it. So....I'm just going to wait and see if it let's it go on it's own or if I can get any plants out of this type of water sprite and just throw the tangled up ones away. Right now this "string" of water sprite sort of got stuck to another plant down below so it's sort of waving in the water...lol. It still has some green but I just don't know if this type will make it.
 
I had added a couple of my water lettuce plants in a couple of days ago to see if any algae would grow on them. They didn't get any(and I know that stuff can spread fast....) So I went ahead and added the rest of my water lettuce. I think it's gonna do awesome!  I just had it in a plastic container at around 75 degrees, no filter or air, slapped the clear lid on it and put it under my regular house "daylight" LED lightbulb...I actually pulled out little tiny babies from it! Not sure if these just fell off the bigger plants or if maybe the bigger leaves died(quite a few yellowed in that thing...but still saw growth), and they are just growing new tiny leaves. I'm thinking the latter since I know these are supposed to grow by runners.
 
I'm crossing my fingers that at least this water lettuce can survive my water! Hopefully the other type of water sprite I got(and am receiving more of) will survive and grow as well! Then I'll finally have some nice floating plants!

 

[don_kihotis]

Plants do not utilize light for more than 8 hours per day whilst algae does. I also used to have my lights on for 12 hours a day and in combination with other mistakes got hair algae too. Now i have them on for 8 hours a day and i even think to go less than that. 

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Um...in nature there is more than 8 hours of light per day. Now, I know we have little systems in our homes, and every one is different. I don't think it's the duration of light itself, but the duration of the TYPE of light as well. I have three different tanks all with different lights. They all have different light durations. And as you stated... the algae is from the light as well as other mistakes. I have one tank the light is on 12 hours a day. No algae issues whatsoever. And not real planted, just a few anubias. It's a regular marineland led. The other two lights actually have the spectrum of light plants need, hence why they were only partially responsible for algae.

But to this tank I had posted about, I set the lights for ten hours instead of 12 and....no more hair algae!! Yay!! I also haven't dosed liquid ferts either. The only thing I have now is some bba on the back glass(closer to the light), the anubias that is closest to the back glass(it was on the one on front but when the light duration lessened, that also went away), and on my spray bar and a bit on my airstone. I also just started seeing some green algae though nothing major. Very very slow growing algae.

So... I dont quite agree with the plants only using 8 hours of light. I also have a horse and have done some research on grass specifically...and the sugars are lowest in the morning and build all throughout the day until the evening when they hit their peak. When the sun starts to go down is when they stop making sugar and start using that to get through the night.

Now, each plant, terrestrial or otherwise, will use light to what it is suited and made for. As not all artificial systems(our tanks) are the same, neither are the plants we keep in them the same.

 

[Byron]

Plants do not utilize light for more than 8 hours per day whilst algae does. I also used to have my lights on for 12 hours a day and in combination with other mistakes got hair algae too. Now i have them on for 8 hours a day and i even think to go less than that. 

 
As cowgirluntamed mentioned, there is much more to this than just the duration of the light.
 
In an aquarium, we create a very artificial environment to what aquatic plants receive in their habitats.  Within a very confined volume of water, and water that is pretty much stable from water change to water change, we increase nutrients way beyond those in the habitat, and in many cases the lighting is more intense.  There is room in nature for fluctuations, partly because of the vastness of the environment which can regulate or diverge this or that, something that is very limited if not even impossible in an aquarium.
 
The balance of light intensity/duration and nutrient availability is the key.  Plants grow by photosynthesis, and this process is driven by light, primarily red but also blue.  And the intensity must be sufficient for the plant species, and species have differing requirements.  Provided the light is of sufficient intensity and spectrum, and all required nutrients are available, plants will photosynthesise full out.  At the point at which something is no longer sufficient, be it light or a nutrient (and somewhat depending upon the specific nutrient), photosynthesis slows and may even cease altogether.  We term this the Law of Minimum: plants grow up to the point at which something is lacking.
 
In terms of duration, plants need a period of rest, just as animals do, every 24 hours.  This must be complete darkness.  Provided there are several hours of total darkness, plants will function normally.  The period of daylight that is of sufficient intensity to drive photosynthesis in the plant species can vary, provided all the required nutrients are available.  I have had planted tanks run very well with 15 hours of tank lighting, and I have had them run with 7 hours of tank lighting (tank lighting meaning the "daylight" period of the brightest light).  Obviously the nutrient availability varied between these two extremes; the plant species were much the same.
 
The goal therefore is to provide lighting of the correct intensity for the plant species, and have a duration that is balanced by the required nutrients.  The plant load is also part of the equation.  And the fish load and feeding, since this is a major source of nutrients, in addition to any we might add as fertilizers.  If this balance is achieved, plants will do well and algae will be disadvantaged.  As soon as this balance is no longer present, plants cannot use everything (be it light or nutrients) and algae will take advantage.  Algae is not as demanding as higher plants when it comes to light and nutrients.  "Problem algae" is due to the imbalance, and restoring the balance is the only way to safely and effectively deal with problem algae.
 
Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

You are correct, cowgirl.
 
Different plants have different light needs.  Some need more, some less.  Some thrive in low light, others thrive in high light.  Some thrive in long photoperiods, some in short photoperiods.   Its not nearly as simple as to say that 8 hours is the limit for all plants.  
 
 
 
I see Byron posted while I was typing this.  

The goal therefore is to provide lighting of the correct intensity for the plant species, and have a duration that is balanced by the required nutrients.  The plant load is also part of the equation.  And the fish load and feeding, since this is a major source of nutrients, in addition to any we might add as fertilizers.  If this balance is achieved, plants will do well and algae will be disadvantaged.  As soon as this balance is no longer present, plants cannot use everything (be it light or nutrients) and algae will take advantage.  Algae is not as demanding as higher plants when it comes to light and nutrients.  "Problem algae" is due to the imbalance, and restoring the balance is the only way to safely and effectively deal with problem algae.
 
Byron.

 
And the type of algae that shows up is determined by what is in excess.

 

[Byron]

And the type of algae that shows up is determined by what is in excess.
 

 
Sometimes, though this is not all that well understood and I don't know that it can be pinned down.  I remember reading Rhonda Wilson in her former monthly column in TFH writing more than once that in her fish room of 30+ tanks with plants, she was always amazed to see one type of problem algae in one tank and another type in another tank, and tanks in which problem algae never appeared, even though her tanks were much the same in terms of light and nutrient supplementation.  In my own tanks, brush algae is about the only problem algae I have had, and I have found from experiments that this can be induced by light (intensity or duration) but also by too many nutrients.  Though in the latter, it was a different form of brush algae from what appears in my tanks from too long a lighting period.