How to lower KH or PH?

[Naughts]

And is the hose connected to a water butt/ rain barrel and is therefore rain water?

 

[Rocky998]

@Rocky998 Does your home have a water softener? That would account for the large difference between GH and KH. Water softeners remove the GH minerals but not the KH minerals.

I have no idea... But all I know is that the PHs are different

 

[Rocky998]

And is the hose connected to a water butt/ rain barrel and is therefore rain water?

No

 

[Colin_T]

If you use a hose to fill the tanks, turn the tap on and let it run through the hose for a couple of minutes before collecting water. Garden hoses have a softening agent in the rubber and it stops them kinking. The softening agent can leach into water when the hose is sitting around and it s poisonous to all forms of life. Running the tap for a couple of minutes helps to flush anything out of the house pipes and hose, and reduces the risk of contaminants getting into the tank.

 

[Rocky998]

If you use a hose to fill the tanks, turn the tap on and let it run through the hose for a couple of minutes before collecting water. Garden hoses have a softening agent in the rubber and it stops them kinking. The softening agent can leach into water when the hose is sitting around and it s poisonous to all forms of life. Running the tap for a couple of minutes helps to flush anything out of the house pipes and hose, and reduces the risk of contaminants getting into the tank.

We dont have the rubber ones... We have those pocket size ones that expand when you turn on the water... BUT we also have a hose reel that connects up to the valve with a short rubber hose

 

[Rocky998]

If you use a hose to fill the tanks, turn the tap on and let it run through the hose for a couple of minutes before collecting water. Garden hoses have a softening agent in the rubber and it stops them kinking. The softening agent can leach into water when the hose is sitting around and it s poisonous to all forms of life. Running the tap for a couple of minutes helps to flush anything out of the house pipes and hose, and reduces the risk of contaminants getting into the tank.

I will start doing that though... Thanks!

 

[Rocky998]

So, I tested the hose water that I let sit out in a glass cup and it came back as 8.2... My life is amazing

 

[Rocky998]

I'm thinking about using API PH down... Would this be ok?

 

[Byron]

I'm thinking about using API PH down... Would this be ok?

No. I thought I (and others including @Essjay have elsewhere explained what occurs, but here it is again.

The pH is closely connected to the GH and KH of the water. Here you have a very high KH (200+ ppm I believe was mentioned). The KH "buffers" the pH, preventing changes, so all else being equal, the pH will remain around 8.2 because that is what it is in relation to the KH.

Any attempt to lower the pH will be temporary; within usually around 24 hours the pH that you might well lower to say 7.2 will be back at 8.2 because of the buffering by the KH. [I am not a chemist and cannot explain the technicality of this, but it is how it works.] This fluctuation is far more detrimental to fish than a stable pH even if it is outside their preference. The only way to achieve a lower pH is by reducing the KH, which means diluting the source water with pure water. Or using all pure water (like RO) to begin with, depending upon the fishes' needs when it comes to parameters.

Using organics such as wood, leaves and peat to lower pH would not be successful here any more than the chemical concoctions, though admittedly the organics would at least not be detrimental on their own. But the high KH will easily override any attempts to lower the pH.

You may wonder why the tap water initially comes out with a lower pH, 7 or something. This is because the CO2 dissolved in the water creates carbonic acid, which lowers the pH. But this too is temporary. The CO2 diffuses out of the water, and the pH returns to normal (for the water). If you were to continually pump CO2 into the tank, it would presumably lower the pH, though again this is relative to the other parameters. And high CO2 can at the very least weaken but more likely kill the fish. The natural CO2 that occurs in my fairly heavily planted tanks during the night has an impact on the fish, such that I increased surface disturbance to drive off more of the CO2.

I am not suggesting RO or anything else here, just noting what is necessary to achieve different (lower) parameters. The fish being considered here are going to be more susceptible to any of the above which is another reason to not mess with parameters.

 

[Rocky998]

No. I thought I (and others including @Essjay have elsewhere explained what occurs, but here it is again.

The pH is closely connected to the GH and KH of the water. Here you have a very high KH (200+ ppm I believe was mentioned). The KH "buffers" the pH, preventing changes, so all else being equal, the pH will remain around 8.2 because that is what it is in relation to the KH.

Any attempt to lower the pH will be temporary; within usually around 24 hours the pH that you might well lower to say 7.2 will be back at 8.2 because of the buffering by the KH. [I am not a chemist and cannot explain the technicality of this, but it is how it works.] This fluctuation is far more detrimental to fish than a stable pH even if it is outside their preference. The only way to achieve a lower pH is by reducing the KH, which means diluting the source water with pure water. Or using all pure water (like RO) to begin with, depending upon the fishes' needs when it comes to parameters.

Using organics such as wood, leaves and peat to lower pH would not be successful here any more than the chemical concoctions, though admittedly the organics would at least not be detrimental on their own. But the high KH will easily override any attempts to lower the pH.

You may wonder why the tap water initially comes out with a lower pH, 7 or something. This is because the CO2 dissolved in the water creates carbonic acid, which lowers the pH. But this too is temporary. The CO2 diffuses out of the water, and the pH returns to normal (for the water). If you were to continually pump CO2 into the tank, it would presumably lower the pH, though again this is relative to the other parameters. And high CO2 can at the very least weaken but more likely kill the fish. The natural CO2 that occurs in my fairly heavily planted tanks during the night has an impact on the fish, such that I increased surface disturbance to drive off more of the CO2.

I am not suggesting RO or anything else here, just noting what is necessary to achieve different (lower) parameters. The fish being considered here are going to be more susceptible to any of the above which is another reason to not mess with parameters.

Ok... Is R/O water fairly inexpensive? Also, could a ph of 8.2 be ok for rhe fish I want? I know that is probably a stupid question but someone on another forum site (that I am not a part of) said that they have kept fish from 7 PH water and have had them in 8.4 PH and have done really well...

 

[Byron]

Ok... Is R/O water fairly inexpensive? Also, could a ph of 8.2 be ok for rhe fish I want? I know that is probably a stupid question but someone on another forum site (that I am not a part of) said that they have kept fish from 7 PH water and have had them in 8.4 PH and have done really well...

Of the four parameters (GH, KH, pH and temperature) the two most crucial are GH and temperature because they directly impact the operation of the fish's physiology. The pH is important, but fish show a wider tolerance here than they do with the GH and temperature--provided it is stable (non-fluctuating by more than a couple decimal points) and within reason.

I am not trained as a biologist so I will only say that with your very soft water things are not anywhere as bad as they would be if the GH were very high as well. The problem using RO water is that you need it for every water change--including any emergency changes that may come along--and preparing water externally so the water added is the same as the tank water is invo9lved. I have gone through that several years ago when attempting to pin down a problem. I am glad I did not need to continue.

You can buy RO water, no idea where or what cost, or some install a RO unit on their water source.

 

[Rocky998]

Of the four parameters (GH, KH, pH and temperature) the two most crucial are GH and temperature because they directly impact the operation of the fish's physiology. The pH is important, but fish show a wider tolerance here than they do with the GH and temperature--provided it is stable (non-fluctuating by more than a couple decimal points) and within reason.

I am not trained as a biologist so I will only say that with your very soft water things are not anywhere as bad as they would be if the GH were very high as well. The problem using RO water is that you need it for every water change--including any emergency changes that may come along--and preparing water externally so the water added is the same as the tank water is invo9lved. I have gone through that several years ago when attempting to pin down a problem. I am glad I did not need to continue.

You can buy RO water, no idea where or what cost, or some install a RO unit on their water source.

Thank you for all your help!

 

[Rocky998]

@Rocky998 Does your home have a water softener? That would account for the large difference between GH and KH. Water softeners remove the GH minerals but not the KH minerals.

My dad says that our house has no softener for the water... The water here is just soft

 

[Rocky998]

Looked at R/O water units... YIKES... Thats expensive...

 

[Rocky998]

So will my fish get sick or die from the high PH? If not I may be keeping my parameters where their at