OP
OP
There's no point getting angry about opinions though really is there
Since when do things posted on the internet have to have a "point"?
How Small Is Too Small? How Big Is Big Enough?
- Thread starter eaglesaquarium
- Start date
Since when do things posted on the internet have to have a "point"?
Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
Ooooo....Fish stocking...Now thats a tough one 
!
Hmmm...You know that olde "1 inch of fish per gallon" rule of thumb? Well in some respects i views gallon guides in general as a very rough guide too. Factors to take into consideration when stocking fish;
1.a. How many gallons is the tank? Gallon guides will help you get started off on your journey choosing what fish to get. The problem with gallons is that a tank can be many different measurements but still hold the same amount of gallons. So...;
1.b. What is the tanks measurements? These are IMO far more important to know. As said above, a tank can be many sizes but still hold the same amount of gallons. It could be long and narrow. Tall and narrow. Square or circular. etc.
One good example of this is Bala Shark (also known as silevr sharks) stocking. A lot of the time i see "75 gallons" waved around as a minimum tank size for Bala Sharks. As a general rule of thumb, for fish which have the potential to grow to 12inches+ the tank should be;
To find the length of the tank= 4 times the length of the fish (so 12 inch long growing fish needs a tank at least 4ft long)
To find the width of the tank= Twice the length of the fish
To find the height of the the tank = 1.5 times the "depth" of the fishes body.
Bala Sharks grow between 10-14inches longs tops, so lets say a 12inch long maximum average. So a Bala Shark would need a tank at least 4ft long by 2ft wide. And considering its length & width, its probably going to be 18inches high- and even then these would be very unsual measurements. But here you would have a 75gallon tank. But considering this is not a standard sort of shape tank, you would probably pick up a 75gal of a different shape which might not meet these bare minimum length & width measurements.
But even then, there are other factors which IMO still makes the 75gallon tank inadequate for a Bala Shark;
2. What are the activity levels of the fish?
Fish vary massively in their activity levels. A fish like an adult Common Pleco may spend the large majority of its time just sat under a cave all day, often only coming out for food. But fish like Danio's on the other hand are highly active and almost never stop swimming around. And then there's lots of inbetween fish, which may swim a lot at times but just hoover around at other times etc.
The more active the fish the longer/larger the tank it needs. So while the 4ft long tank is technically large enough for the Bala Shark, when you take into consideration its activity levels (very active skittish fish) the tank is not really large enough (especially when you take into consideration that you are not just going to have one Bala Shark, you're going to have at least 5-6 as a shoaling fish).
3. What is the fishes shape? "Tall" growing fish like Angelfish need (not surprisingly) tall tanks. Generally speaking it is advised that Angelfishes tanks are at least 18inches tall. And bendy fish like eels cope much better in tanks where the ends of the tank wouldn't offer much space for turning around for a fish which is straight and not very bendy etc.
4. Habitat: So crucial this one!
There are thousands upon thousands of fish available in the fish keeping hobby, and new ones are entering it all the time (sometimes before they're even officially described/indentified by science). A lot of people will pay a lot of attention to the water quality environment the fish does best in (PH, temperature, oxygen levels etc) but neglect to look into its natural habitat.
In a large freshwater river there will be a great diversity of habitats- at the bottom it may be gravelly in some places, large boulders in others. It may have course sand in some area's, soft silty mud in others. In some parts the plants may grow tall, strong and big leafed, while in others the plants may have small delicate finely bunched leaves. Some parts may have no plants at all. Some parts of the river may be fast & choppy at the top, dim and slow flowing at the bottom. Some parts may be shallow, warm and meandering with dappled light, while other shallow areas may brightly light and have cool rapids etc.
And this is just a freshwater tropical river, let alone ponds, pools, lakes, streams & mangroves etc. In this river alone there will be hundreds or thousands of types of fish in it occupying every niche & habitat it has to offer.
Sooo...
You have a tank. Lets say its 30 gallons and you're stocking it with some Dwarf Gourami's. But you don't put a lot (if any) planting in it, assuming the gourami's will enjoy not having their tanks space all used up with plants. You also put a strong filter to help oxygenate the water and bright lighting to help highlight your prized fish.
But the Gourami's come from habitats which are heavily planted. They choose the area's where the current is weaker and the light dappled by trees. Put in the 40gal tank, whereas previously if it had been very planted it would be possible to keep 2-3 Dwarf Gourami's or more, now all in the open and with nothing to divide up territory or offer decent protection the Gourami's are stressed in each others constant visible presence. Dense planting which would have previously offered quieter area's away from the strong current which the Gourami's would have taken rest in when tired are not there. And with minimal planting there is only minimal protection from the glare of the blinding tank lights.
So planted tanks definitely better yeah? Well its true that plants can help chill out fish, offering them protection & habitat etc. But on the other hand for some fish the most important primary factor is space. With the Gourami's, if their 30gallon tank was so planted up that you could barely see from one end of the tank to the other, they'd be happy as pie. But with the Danio's on the other hand, they would be very stressed.
Danio's are very active fish. They shoal a lot and are very quick agile swimmers. While they certainly benefit from some planting in their tanks, they like to be able to see around them well too. So in a Danio tank, however you choose to decorate it its good to have a large open space in it for active swimming. And unlike the Gourami's the Danio's thoroughly enjoy a strong, cool & oxygenated current. In a planted tank with gentle warm current it would be stiffling for them. But in their natural habitat they occupy streams & rivers where they'll choose the area's with a good oxygenated cool tropical current.
So habitat is basically crucial for keeping fish properly. In some senses, its more important than the size of the tank they occupy- you could have the largest tank you like but if its habitat is not well suited to the fish then depending on the fish you might as well discount all that extra space etc. And with the right habitat and fish you may be able to make a smaller than recommended tank work out quite well for the fish in question.
So when you're setting up your tank...Well, aquariums are fantastic in general for expressing your creative or artistic side. Some tanks are works of natural art, while others are stylist minimast big impression peices, and others bright cheerful or humourous family friendly aquariums etc. But do keep strongly in mind the habitat of the fish you want to get- a Common Pleco or Red Tailed Black Shark you will need a cave. Danio's large space. Gourami's dense planting. Corys soft sand or rounded gravel substrate. Khuli Loaches piles of rounded rocks for hiding in. A lot of cichlids you might be able to have any live planting at all. Clown pleco's drift/bog wood for eating. Hillstream loaches fast oxygenated current. Betta's gentle current. Elephantnose fish subdued lighting and soft fine sand substrate.
Etc Etc.
5. What parts of the tank does the fish primarily occupy?
For example fish like corys, yoyo loaches, clowns loaches, weather loaches, khuli loaches and many types of pleco's and other catfish etc spend almost their entire lives at the bottom of the tank. So for such fish the height of the tank is often not going to be a major concern for them, the amount of space available at the bottom of the tank is going to be a very important factor (which is why measurements of tank in question are also very important). If you go puttting loads of rocks or plants on the bottom of the tank, the more you put in the more you may reduce the swimming area available for the bottom dwelling fish.
6. Over-crowding.
Different fish occupy different zones of the tank. Some fish will spend a great deal of their time at the top of the tank, while others in the middle and others almost completely at the bottom (and lots of inbetweens too etc). By stocking different level dwelling fish you can help get the most out of the space your tank has to offer or help avoid over-crowding the same level too much etc.
7. Bioload. Bioload is all about how much the fitration can handle the ammonia load created by the fish in the tank. Many built-in filters cannot hold that many fish. So when someone says "Oh well you can have X amount of this fish for this size tank", well, depending on the filtration in the tank you might not be able. But you may also be able to hold more than what is suggested. And different fish produce different levels of waste. For example fish like goldfish & pleco's have a big reputation for producing a lot of waste so it is always recommended you have strong filtration in the tank. But other fish like Neon Tetras or critters like Amano Shrimps are quite light waste producers and so you may not need to upgrade the filtration of the tank at all (or even get away with very weak filtration).
8. Compatability. This is an obviously crucial factor in fish stocking. Fish usually fall into 3 groups: peaceful, semi-peaceful & aggressive. Or non-territorial, semi-territorial or v.territorial. So usually the most obvious thing to research after you've sussed out that the new fish you're interested in is suitable for your tank size & environment etc, is that it will not nip the fins off you're fish, bully them over invisible territories or even get bullied itself etc.
Many people will agree that one of the major keys to keeping fish successfully is to keep the fishes stress levels as low as possible.
But there are many other stress-factors to keeping fish stress free other than making sure their suitable for each other on an aggression level.
For example some fish are more confident than others. Some fish are very boisterous and are straight to the feeding zone in no time at all. But during feeding time some of the other types of the fish in the tank might not be so confident and so be reluctant to come and get food when the other fish are in a feeding frenzy. Some slow swimming chilled out fish can get stressed merely by being put with very active quick & darty swimming fish.
And then there's gender ratio's. For example a classic one is guppys. Yes, guppys are sociable fish and do prefer the company of their own kind. But the males have very strong sex drives and can over-harrass the females. And when the males are kept together they can be slightly aggressive towards one another. So when it comes to minimum gender ratio's & numbers with guppys, its generally advised that;
For all-female group: 3 females minimum
For all-male group: 3-5 males minimum (the more the better as the more you have the more aggression is spread out amongst the group rather than concentrated too much on a particular individual etc).
For mixed gender group: 2-3 females per male minimum.
And some fish you cannot keep males and females happily together at all, for example male & female betta's.
Some fish won't tolerate their own kind at all (for example Red Tailed Black Sharks) but others are only happy when they're with their own kind.
So getting the right numbers (and sometimes right gender levels/ratio's) is very important when just concerning the particular fish in question let alone what its going to live with.
A Neon Tetra might be a small fish but they're shoaling fish and so its recommended you have at least 5-6 of them. Corys & Oto's are sociable fish and so its recommended that you keep them in at least trio's. The reason for this is that these fish feel safer (and thus less stressed) when it larger numbers. But if you have a very large tank, you should increase these minimum number levels (for example 5 Neon Tetras might feel pretty lost in a big 100gallon tank but pretty cushty in a 15gallon tank etc).
Fish are also all opportunists by nature. For example there are few "algae eating" fish which are above having a scavenge on a dead tank mate. A Common Pleco may be almost completely incapable of killing other fish but it will still much on dead fish if it comes across them. More importantly, when it comes to personalities this opportunistic behaviour can affect stocking. For example, Danio's ARE peaceful fish. But they can be a bit nippy and put with one of those gourami's, they may decide to nip the feelers of the slow moving Gourami. Or their may nip the long flowing finnage of a fancy male Betta (Siamese Fighting Fish). But the male Betta might nip the fins of a fancy male guppy yet completely leave alone the Penguin Tetra's in the tank.
Some fish were just evolved to be slow and chilled out. Other fish we selectively bred to have fancy long fins which weighted them down and reduced their agility. But whatever the case you, seemingly peaceful fish will sometimes attack other fish if they're vulnerable (i.e. can't swim or move quickly) or become vulnerable (like a livebearer in labour or a fish that has become sick etc).
There are other factors too, but;
9. Anyways, the end is nigh of this Epic length post lol ! So where do all these factors leave us? Well, you're right- good diverse natural behaviour in a fish IS a good indicator of a fishes happiness in its environment. But so many things affect natural behavior than the number of gallons of water its kept in. Of COURSE some tanks will just be too small to keep certain fish in, but i think we need to stop focusing so much on gallons alone when it comes to stocking.
And my opinion on it all ? I honestly think a lot of tanks are too small for the fish people keep in them. I don't consider a 1 gallon tank to be a tank- its a jar lol! I've been keeping fish for over 8 years now and have worked my way through many tanks, starting off with a little 10gallon tank, to my current which is 150gallons. Personally i like to understock tanks a bit (by other people's standards) as i view more natural behaviour in "understocked" tanks (depending on the type of understocking etc).
But what is the natural behaviour of the fish in question? Well thats another matter altogether
v ...I learnt a lot about natural fish behavior when i moved my goldfish from their 5ft tank to a 24ft long pond.
!Hmmm...You know that olde "1 inch of fish per gallon" rule of thumb? Well in some respects i views gallon guides in general as a very rough guide too. Factors to take into consideration when stocking fish;
1.a. How many gallons is the tank? Gallon guides will help you get started off on your journey choosing what fish to get. The problem with gallons is that a tank can be many different measurements but still hold the same amount of gallons. So...;
1.b. What is the tanks measurements? These are IMO far more important to know. As said above, a tank can be many sizes but still hold the same amount of gallons. It could be long and narrow. Tall and narrow. Square or circular. etc.
One good example of this is Bala Shark (also known as silevr sharks) stocking. A lot of the time i see "75 gallons" waved around as a minimum tank size for Bala Sharks. As a general rule of thumb, for fish which have the potential to grow to 12inches+ the tank should be;
To find the length of the tank= 4 times the length of the fish (so 12 inch long growing fish needs a tank at least 4ft long)
To find the width of the tank= Twice the length of the fish
To find the height of the the tank = 1.5 times the "depth" of the fishes body.
Bala Sharks grow between 10-14inches longs tops, so lets say a 12inch long maximum average. So a Bala Shark would need a tank at least 4ft long by 2ft wide. And considering its length & width, its probably going to be 18inches high- and even then these would be very unsual measurements. But here you would have a 75gallon tank. But considering this is not a standard sort of shape tank, you would probably pick up a 75gal of a different shape which might not meet these bare minimum length & width measurements.
But even then, there are other factors which IMO still makes the 75gallon tank inadequate for a Bala Shark;
2. What are the activity levels of the fish?
Fish vary massively in their activity levels. A fish like an adult Common Pleco may spend the large majority of its time just sat under a cave all day, often only coming out for food. But fish like Danio's on the other hand are highly active and almost never stop swimming around. And then there's lots of inbetween fish, which may swim a lot at times but just hoover around at other times etc.
The more active the fish the longer/larger the tank it needs. So while the 4ft long tank is technically large enough for the Bala Shark, when you take into consideration its activity levels (very active skittish fish) the tank is not really large enough (especially when you take into consideration that you are not just going to have one Bala Shark, you're going to have at least 5-6 as a shoaling fish).
3. What is the fishes shape? "Tall" growing fish like Angelfish need (not surprisingly) tall tanks. Generally speaking it is advised that Angelfishes tanks are at least 18inches tall. And bendy fish like eels cope much better in tanks where the ends of the tank wouldn't offer much space for turning around for a fish which is straight and not very bendy etc.
4. Habitat: So crucial this one!
There are thousands upon thousands of fish available in the fish keeping hobby, and new ones are entering it all the time (sometimes before they're even officially described/indentified by science). A lot of people will pay a lot of attention to the water quality environment the fish does best in (PH, temperature, oxygen levels etc) but neglect to look into its natural habitat.
In a large freshwater river there will be a great diversity of habitats- at the bottom it may be gravelly in some places, large boulders in others. It may have course sand in some area's, soft silty mud in others. In some parts the plants may grow tall, strong and big leafed, while in others the plants may have small delicate finely bunched leaves. Some parts may have no plants at all. Some parts of the river may be fast & choppy at the top, dim and slow flowing at the bottom. Some parts may be shallow, warm and meandering with dappled light, while other shallow areas may brightly light and have cool rapids etc.
And this is just a freshwater tropical river, let alone ponds, pools, lakes, streams & mangroves etc. In this river alone there will be hundreds or thousands of types of fish in it occupying every niche & habitat it has to offer.
Sooo...
You have a tank. Lets say its 30 gallons and you're stocking it with some Dwarf Gourami's. But you don't put a lot (if any) planting in it, assuming the gourami's will enjoy not having their tanks space all used up with plants. You also put a strong filter to help oxygenate the water and bright lighting to help highlight your prized fish.
But the Gourami's come from habitats which are heavily planted. They choose the area's where the current is weaker and the light dappled by trees. Put in the 40gal tank, whereas previously if it had been very planted it would be possible to keep 2-3 Dwarf Gourami's or more, now all in the open and with nothing to divide up territory or offer decent protection the Gourami's are stressed in each others constant visible presence. Dense planting which would have previously offered quieter area's away from the strong current which the Gourami's would have taken rest in when tired are not there. And with minimal planting there is only minimal protection from the glare of the blinding tank lights.
So planted tanks definitely better yeah? Well its true that plants can help chill out fish, offering them protection & habitat etc. But on the other hand for some fish the most important primary factor is space. With the Gourami's, if their 30gallon tank was so planted up that you could barely see from one end of the tank to the other, they'd be happy as pie. But with the Danio's on the other hand, they would be very stressed.
Danio's are very active fish. They shoal a lot and are very quick agile swimmers. While they certainly benefit from some planting in their tanks, they like to be able to see around them well too. So in a Danio tank, however you choose to decorate it its good to have a large open space in it for active swimming. And unlike the Gourami's the Danio's thoroughly enjoy a strong, cool & oxygenated current. In a planted tank with gentle warm current it would be stiffling for them. But in their natural habitat they occupy streams & rivers where they'll choose the area's with a good oxygenated cool tropical current.
So habitat is basically crucial for keeping fish properly. In some senses, its more important than the size of the tank they occupy- you could have the largest tank you like but if its habitat is not well suited to the fish then depending on the fish you might as well discount all that extra space etc. And with the right habitat and fish you may be able to make a smaller than recommended tank work out quite well for the fish in question.
So when you're setting up your tank...Well, aquariums are fantastic in general for expressing your creative or artistic side. Some tanks are works of natural art, while others are stylist minimast big impression peices, and others bright cheerful or humourous family friendly aquariums etc. But do keep strongly in mind the habitat of the fish you want to get- a Common Pleco or Red Tailed Black Shark you will need a cave. Danio's large space. Gourami's dense planting. Corys soft sand or rounded gravel substrate. Khuli Loaches piles of rounded rocks for hiding in. A lot of cichlids you might be able to have any live planting at all. Clown pleco's drift/bog wood for eating. Hillstream loaches fast oxygenated current. Betta's gentle current. Elephantnose fish subdued lighting and soft fine sand substrate.
Etc Etc.
5. What parts of the tank does the fish primarily occupy?
For example fish like corys, yoyo loaches, clowns loaches, weather loaches, khuli loaches and many types of pleco's and other catfish etc spend almost their entire lives at the bottom of the tank. So for such fish the height of the tank is often not going to be a major concern for them, the amount of space available at the bottom of the tank is going to be a very important factor (which is why measurements of tank in question are also very important). If you go puttting loads of rocks or plants on the bottom of the tank, the more you put in the more you may reduce the swimming area available for the bottom dwelling fish.
6. Over-crowding.
Different fish occupy different zones of the tank. Some fish will spend a great deal of their time at the top of the tank, while others in the middle and others almost completely at the bottom (and lots of inbetweens too etc). By stocking different level dwelling fish you can help get the most out of the space your tank has to offer or help avoid over-crowding the same level too much etc.
7. Bioload. Bioload is all about how much the fitration can handle the ammonia load created by the fish in the tank. Many built-in filters cannot hold that many fish. So when someone says "Oh well you can have X amount of this fish for this size tank", well, depending on the filtration in the tank you might not be able. But you may also be able to hold more than what is suggested. And different fish produce different levels of waste. For example fish like goldfish & pleco's have a big reputation for producing a lot of waste so it is always recommended you have strong filtration in the tank. But other fish like Neon Tetras or critters like Amano Shrimps are quite light waste producers and so you may not need to upgrade the filtration of the tank at all (or even get away with very weak filtration).
8. Compatability. This is an obviously crucial factor in fish stocking. Fish usually fall into 3 groups: peaceful, semi-peaceful & aggressive. Or non-territorial, semi-territorial or v.territorial. So usually the most obvious thing to research after you've sussed out that the new fish you're interested in is suitable for your tank size & environment etc, is that it will not nip the fins off you're fish, bully them over invisible territories or even get bullied itself etc.
Many people will agree that one of the major keys to keeping fish successfully is to keep the fishes stress levels as low as possible.
But there are many other stress-factors to keeping fish stress free other than making sure their suitable for each other on an aggression level.
For example some fish are more confident than others. Some fish are very boisterous and are straight to the feeding zone in no time at all. But during feeding time some of the other types of the fish in the tank might not be so confident and so be reluctant to come and get food when the other fish are in a feeding frenzy. Some slow swimming chilled out fish can get stressed merely by being put with very active quick & darty swimming fish.
And then there's gender ratio's. For example a classic one is guppys. Yes, guppys are sociable fish and do prefer the company of their own kind. But the males have very strong sex drives and can over-harrass the females. And when the males are kept together they can be slightly aggressive towards one another. So when it comes to minimum gender ratio's & numbers with guppys, its generally advised that;
For all-female group: 3 females minimum
For all-male group: 3-5 males minimum (the more the better as the more you have the more aggression is spread out amongst the group rather than concentrated too much on a particular individual etc).
For mixed gender group: 2-3 females per male minimum.
And some fish you cannot keep males and females happily together at all, for example male & female betta's.
Some fish won't tolerate their own kind at all (for example Red Tailed Black Sharks) but others are only happy when they're with their own kind.
So getting the right numbers (and sometimes right gender levels/ratio's) is very important when just concerning the particular fish in question let alone what its going to live with.
A Neon Tetra might be a small fish but they're shoaling fish and so its recommended you have at least 5-6 of them. Corys & Oto's are sociable fish and so its recommended that you keep them in at least trio's. The reason for this is that these fish feel safer (and thus less stressed) when it larger numbers. But if you have a very large tank, you should increase these minimum number levels (for example 5 Neon Tetras might feel pretty lost in a big 100gallon tank but pretty cushty in a 15gallon tank etc).
Fish are also all opportunists by nature. For example there are few "algae eating" fish which are above having a scavenge on a dead tank mate. A Common Pleco may be almost completely incapable of killing other fish but it will still much on dead fish if it comes across them. More importantly, when it comes to personalities this opportunistic behaviour can affect stocking. For example, Danio's ARE peaceful fish. But they can be a bit nippy and put with one of those gourami's, they may decide to nip the feelers of the slow moving Gourami. Or their may nip the long flowing finnage of a fancy male Betta (Siamese Fighting Fish). But the male Betta might nip the fins of a fancy male guppy yet completely leave alone the Penguin Tetra's in the tank.
Some fish were just evolved to be slow and chilled out. Other fish we selectively bred to have fancy long fins which weighted them down and reduced their agility. But whatever the case you, seemingly peaceful fish will sometimes attack other fish if they're vulnerable (i.e. can't swim or move quickly) or become vulnerable (like a livebearer in labour or a fish that has become sick etc).
There are other factors too, but;
9. Anyways, the end is nigh of this Epic length post lol
! So where do all these factors leave us? Well, you're right- good diverse natural behaviour in a fish IS a good indicator of a fishes happiness in its environment. But so many things affect natural behavior than the number of gallons of water its kept in. Of COURSE some tanks will just be too small to keep certain fish in, but i think we need to stop focusing so much on gallons alone when it comes to stocking.And my opinion on it all
? I honestly think a lot of tanks are too small for the fish people keep in them. I don't consider a 1 gallon tank to be a tank- its a jar lol! I've been keeping fish for over 8 years now and have worked my way through many tanks, starting off with a little 10gallon tank, to my current which is 150gallons. Personally i like to understock tanks a bit (by other people's standards) as i view more natural behaviour in "understocked" tanks (depending on the type of understocking etc). But what is the natural behaviour of the fish in question? Well thats another matter altogether
v ...I learnt a lot about natural fish behavior when i moved my goldfish from their 5ft tank to a 24ft long pond.Caprichoso
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Thank you for the post Tokis-Phoenix,great info and those are all very important things to consider. I wish more people would keep those considerations in mind before getting a tank and putting fish in it.
And my opinion on it all
But what is the natural behaviour of the fish in question? Well thats another matter altogether
Great post, epic length too! But plenty of good advice.
I think this subject is one that only becomes apparent after a lot of experience, you need to spend plenty of time observing fish in a variety of habitats before you can judge what normal behaviour is.
So while the guides on "this fish needs x gallons minimum" are a useful yardstick it depends widely on many other factors you have brought up.
When I started the hobby I kept 6 serpae tetras and a BN catfish in a 20L (5 gallon) tank. The serpaes would regularly bicker amongst themselves, and the BN (who is still a juvenile) just stayed hidden. I now have them in a much larger tank (90L, 24G). Now, the serpaes don't really behave any differently even though they are a "10 gallon minimum" fish. But it seems the more bottom feeders I add, the more I see of the BN. There's a really interesting dynamic now amongst the different species, and they all compete with each other without any outright fighting. When I was coming home from the fish shop the last time with corys and RBTS, I thought "oh gee have i pushed it a bit too far with my stocking level" but I'm really happy with the result.
I think many of the estimates and expertise on here saying "that tank is too small" may be erring on the conservative side, if you set up a smaller tank to the preference of the fish they may be quite happy. The main thing is that territorial fish eg cichlids and rams need to have their own area. Intra-species conflict will also be a problem in a small tank - if you mix different species then they will often get along if they look different and aren't particularly aggressive as a species.
twodoctors
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A couple of things:
What is natural behaviour?
I don't think anyone really knows the answer to be very honest. Scientist speculate what they (would) do in the wild with evidence from what they eat (looking at stomach content), their body shape and their natural habitat (where they are mostly found). Reading a journal describing the odessa barb recently (was looking for info regarding their potential size at the time), they don't really say what they do in the wild. So how does one define natural behaviour?
Water chemistry
Personally I think the only reason people say small tanks are only suitable for shrimps is because they have very low bioload. Full stop. Again, no one can say shrimp only inhabit a tiny area in the wild. So why is it not cruel to keep shrimp in a box?
Density
In the wild, for each x amount of gallon volume of water (let's say 55G like my tank), I am sure there will only be 1 fish (or less). Yet we put way more fishes than that in a box of water we call aquarium. Isn't that cruel?
We all keep fishes for our own enjoyment. One can argue that we (those of us who research our fishes) are providing them security from predators and providing them a stable environment for them to grow. Does that mean the fishes would prefer to be in our tank to the wild? That really is anyone's guess.
My answer to the original question would be "the biggest tank you can afford with the lowest number of fish you are happy to keep in the tank".
Adrian
What is natural behaviour?
I don't think anyone really knows the answer to be very honest. Scientist speculate what they (would) do in the wild with evidence from what they eat (looking at stomach content), their body shape and their natural habitat (where they are mostly found). Reading a journal describing the odessa barb recently (was looking for info regarding their potential size at the time), they don't really say what they do in the wild. So how does one define natural behaviour?
Water chemistry
Personally I think the only reason people say small tanks are only suitable for shrimps is because they have very low bioload. Full stop. Again, no one can say shrimp only inhabit a tiny area in the wild. So why is it not cruel to keep shrimp in a box?
Density
In the wild, for each x amount of gallon volume of water (let's say 55G like my tank), I am sure there will only be 1 fish (or less). Yet we put way more fishes than that in a box of water we call aquarium. Isn't that cruel?
We all keep fishes for our own enjoyment. One can argue that we (those of us who research our fishes) are providing them security from predators and providing them a stable environment for them to grow. Does that mean the fishes would prefer to be in our tank to the wild? That really is anyone's guess.
My answer to the original question would be "the biggest tank you can afford with the lowest number of fish you are happy to keep in the tank".
Adrian
Mikaila31
Always Watching
Tizer
Team TetraTEC
woah this thread is like reading a topic on religion you can discuss it all day and there is no real answer to it 
you can discuss it all day and there is no real answer to it
OP
OP
I think it is a topic that needs to be discussed, and should be discussed time and time again. After all, how many times have we seen threads with individuals with a bunch of fish in a tank that is far under the proper level? Not only that, but I think having a meeting of the minds is always good. Perhaps folks on either side of the discussion will take a little bit from the other and everyone (including our fish) can benefit from it.
Mikaila31
Always Watching
LOL You know everything eventually leads to death. The main issue there would be if it was normal or premature. Depending on how bad it is disfigurement can happen(example would be stunting). That was not really what I was getting at, thats a physical manifestation, not behavioral. Behavioral will happen before anything else. Best I can think of would be what I call 'robotic swimming' in fish. I've seen fish swim the same pattern over and over constantly. Very similar to pacing of a dog that is penned too much. When animals are involuntary confined in small spaces they tend to pick up bad behaviors usually in response to boredom or frustration. Horses stalled for longer are more likely to cribb and/or chew wood. Though as someone mentioned it can be difficult to determine completely natural behavior, it is not as hard to determine unnatural behaviors. Voluntary confinement does not cause the same behavioral effects. Its the same as choosing to stay in the same room all day vs being lock in the same room all day....
Right I'm going to go with the horse thing.
They will weave/crib/box walk if stabled for long periods with no exercise/turnout.
however, some horses will do it naturally, and although undesirable, can be cured.
It really isnt the same as choosing/being locked in.
They will weave/crib/box walk if stabled for long periods with no exercise/turnout.
however, some horses will do it naturally, and although undesirable, can be cured.
It really isnt the same as choosing/being locked in.
Mikaila31
Always Watching
Right I'm going to go with the horse thing.
They will weave/crib/box walk if stabled for long periods with no exercise/turnout.
however, some horses will do it naturally, and although undesirable, can be cured.
It really isnt the same as choosing/being locked in.
But if it is MUCH more common when stabled for too long how does it not have to do with choosing/being locked in. It would only be choosing if was staying in there while the stall door was left open.
Is it unnatural then for fish to consistently swim against the glass? I'm not talking about a new addition to a tank, but a fish that has been there more then 2 weeks...
The choosing thing was a different point, i wasnt actually linking the two points.
I'm actually exhausted over this debate now, ive made my points many times and fair enough i may be wrong, but i think im right.
After seeing a prize horse waste away due to box walking and weaving despite having regular turnout and no oats/anythign like that, it just seems to me that not everything that people see as caused by something could just be natural. Hence why some fish just die e.g DGD or neon tetra disease.
I'm actually exhausted over this debate now, ive made my points many times and fair enough i may be wrong, but i think im right.
After seeing a prize horse waste away due to box walking and weaving despite having regular turnout and no oats/anythign like that, it just seems to me that not everything that people see as caused by something could just be natural. Hence why some fish just die e.g DGD or neon tetra disease.
Mikaila31
Always Watching
Voluntary means you choose for it to happen/have control over it.... involuntary means you can not control it.
DGD and neon tetra disease are about as natural as cancer and diabetes
.I know exactly what voluntary and involuntary mean thankyou.
And cancer and diabetes are 100% natural. Cancer is a mutation of the proto oncogene and the tumour repressor cells, which causes certain cells to increase their reproduction rates massively, resulting in a tumour. I should know, I'm currently studying it as a major part of my final exams in biology at A-level.
Diabetes is just poor control of blood glucose levels, because of insulin production.
Both are 100% natural so i dont get your point with that.
And cancer and diabetes are 100% natural. Cancer is a mutation of the proto oncogene and the tumour repressor cells, which causes certain cells to increase their reproduction rates massively, resulting in a tumour. I should know, I'm currently studying it as a major part of my final exams in biology at A-level.
Diabetes is just poor control of blood glucose levels, because of insulin production.
Both are 100% natural so i dont get your point with that.
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