How many fish?

[ella777]

Hi, I've been wanting a more planted and full tank for a while now.
I have a 200l tank with around 27 cardinal tetras, 3 red phantoms, 6 kuhli loaches and 1 panda garra.

Once I've put more plants in and set it up exactly how I'd like it, I'd love to get some more fish as it's looking very empty.

I was thinking about Chili Rasboras, I think they're around 1.8cm? I'm getting mixed sizes online.
My main question is, is 28 Chili Rasboras too many? I've worked the sizes out and I should be able to get 28 if they're 1.8cm, as that would be around 50L, the cardinals are around 4cm, so 4x27 is around 105L, Kuhlis are 6cm so 36L, red phantoms are around 3.5cm so 10L. All equalling around 200L...

My main concern is the size of the rasboras, I dont want them to become invisible if the numbers are too small.

 

[plebian]

First of all, if you're adding plants your tank will no longer be 200 liters. In truth, even if it was bare bottom it would hold a maximum of 190 liters since you can't fill a tank all the way to the top. I assume you already have substrate which will further reduce the volume. Driftwood, rocks, etc? All will reduce the volume.

Secondly, and more importantly, the minimum water volume requirements most commonly recommended for any given species is almost always too little. Will they survive? Yes. Will they thrive? No. In my opinion, most of the minimum water requirements you come across should be doubled. In short, your tank is already overstocked, even assuming minimum water volume recommendations and without adding plants.

On a final note, tetras and other shoaling species need swimming space. I wouldn't put any shoaling species in a tank less than 48" long. You may think your tank is "looking very empty", but fish are not Christmas tree ornaments.

 

[MuddyWaters]

I don't think that it's overstocked. I've always had tanks that have a fair number of fish. My 75 gallon has about 70 fish- mostly small - and it's heavily planted. The tank is healthy, the fish thrive and have plenty of room to swim. I do have too many angelfish (12), but they are still juveniles. When they mature (about July or August), I will have to re-home at least half of them, but I ordered 6 and the seller sent me 12, so I'm enjoying watching them grow.

There is a lot of back and forth about how many fish are too many, but I just go with my past experience and observation of the fish in my tank.

The way I stocked my 75 gallon was to get 10 embers, for example, first and watch how they're doing. Once they were settled, then I got more.

I have hatchets at the top of the tank, various tetras and the angels in the middle, corys and spotted raphael on the bottom, and 3 otos that stick to the glass around the edges and plants etc. I've done a lot of reading on how many fish are too many. I've found a lot of contradiction. It's one of many topics in the hobby that have die-hards on both sides of the fence. With anything like that, I take it all with a grain of salt and use my experience and observation of my tanks to decide what to do.

I know what looks like enough for me, and I have had fish that live for years with the stocking level I go with, and their behavior looks normal, so I just go with that.

 

[plebian]

I know what looks like enough for me, and I have had fish that live for years with the stocking level I go with, and their behavior looks normal, so I just go with that.

The title of your post is "How may fish?". If you already knew the answer, why pose the question?

As I said, your fish may survive with your stocking levels, but you've never witnessed their natural behavior. You haven't left any room for that. I realize my opinion won't be seriously considered, so I won't comment further.

 

[MuddyWaters]

The title of your post is "How may fish?". If you already knew the answer, why pose the question?

As I said, your fish may survive with your stocking levels, but you've never witnessed their natural behavior. You haven't left any room for that. I realize my opinion won't be seriously considered, so I won't comment further.

I'm not OP- was just giving my 2 cents on the 2 posts above mine.

 

[ella777]

I don't think that it's overstocked. I've always had tanks that have a fair number of fish. My 75 gallon has about 70 fish- mostly small - and it's heavily planted. The tank is healthy, the fish thrive and have plenty of room to swim. I do have too many angelfish (12), but they are still juveniles. When they mature (about July or August), I will have to re-home at least half of them, but I ordered 6 and the seller sent me 12, so I'm enjoying watching them grow.

There is a lot of back and forth about how many fish are too many, but I just go with my past experience and observation of the fish in my tank.

The way I stocked my 75 gallon was to get 10 embers, for example, first and watch how they're doing. Once they were settled, then I got more.

I have hatchets at the top of the tank, various tetras and the angels in the middle, corys and spotted raphael on the bottom, and 3 otos that stick to the glass around the edges and plants etc. I've done a lot of reading on how many fish are too many. I've found a lot of contradiction. It's one of many topics in the hobby that have die-hards on both sides of the fence. With anything like that, I take it all with a grain of salt and use my experience and observation of my tanks to decide what to do.

I know what looks like enough for me, and I have had fish that live for years with the stocking level I go with, and their behavior looks normal, so I just go with that.

Thank you, I'll obviously set it up first and then if it still looks tragic, I'll get some Chilis

 

[Back in the fold]

I'm not OP- was just giving my 2 cents on the 2 posts above mine.

I’ll see your two cents and raise you a nickel .

 

[GaryE]

I'm generally an understocking voice here. That said, most of our measurements for stocking are off the wall. A ten cm juvenile Discus has the body mass of an entire shoal of chili Bororas (your size difference info comes from the trade name - stores sell related but slightly different Bororas species as "chili-rasbora"). Body length is meaningless. Bulk matters too.

I would expect the red phantoms to dislike the tiny Bororas. They have the same niche, and similar needs, but there is a size difference. Your fish interests all like the bottom half of the tank, and it is crowded down there. I would add a small number of phantoms, to diffuse any aggression. They can be nippy among their own group, and 3 is a dangerous number because the third in rank fish gets the aggression.

I see @plebian 's point, though not his or her nippiness, and I would like to know what water change routine and what filtration you're planning. Those elements go a long way to creating good homes for fish. The upper reaches of your tank are unoccupied, and you have low bioload fish. I would investigate surface oriented fish. If the water quality is good, they wouldn't be crowded as they don't care who lives downstairs. There are small fish, like hatchets, that don't like going to the bottom of a tank. They tend to be silvery though, as they use reflected sunlight for camouflage.

 

[ella777]

I'm generally an understocking voice here. That said, most of our measurements for stocking are off the wall. A ten cm juvenile Discus has the body mass of an entire shoal of chili Bororas (your size difference info comes from the trade name - stores sell related but slightly different Bororas species as "chili-rasbora"). Body length is meaningless. Bulk matters too.

I would expect the red phantoms to dislike the tiny Bororas. They have the same niche, and similar needs, but there is a size difference. Your fish interests all like the bottom half of the tank, and it is crowded down there. I would add a small number of phantoms, to diffuse any aggression. They can be nippy among their own group, and 3 is a dangerous number because the third in rank fish gets the aggression.

I see @plebian 's point, though not his or her nippiness, and I would like to know what water change routine and what filtration you're planning. Those elements go a long way to creating good homes for fish. The upper reaches of your tank are unoccupied, and you have low bioload fish. I would investigate surface oriented fish. If the water quality is good, they wouldn't be crowded as they don't care who lives downstairs. There are small fish, like hatchets, that don't like going to the bottom of a tank. They tend to be silvery though, as they use reflected sunlight for camouflage.

Hi, I've had the red phantoms for around 3-4 years and they are quite chill, I was new to fish and the man in the shop said 3 was a good amount. I realise it's not enough, but they do seem fine and are fine with the other fish too.
I don't know if you remember me saying this a few months ago, but the man in the shop ran out of cardinals, and gave me 2 neons as a replacement. I didn't ask for them, I said it doesn't matter but he insisted. They're very small and school with the cardinals, but the phantoms aren't interested in them and they're about 1.5cm.

I find the cardinals stay in the middle-upper section of the tank when I'm not in the room, but as soon as I come in they go a bit lower down. The tank has been set up for a little over a year, and I've had the same filters since I got the tank.
I have 2 hydra 30s which I find are very good, but not quite powerful enough to suck up a small fish.

 

[emeraldking]

I do see @plebian 's point too. For actually, whatever size of tank we have is too small for all kinds of fish if we'd compare it to the specimens in free nature. But a tank is a tank no matter the size and thus always smaller than the space they'd have in free nature. But I also like to say that depending on what kind of fish we're talking about that some live in a high number in a very small pool of water because of the season. Which means months being stocked in high numbers without any health and thriving problems. They even young in there. So, that would make a complete difference in view of what's too many fish.
And I can see @Back in the fold old's opinion as well for that matter. @plebian, The way @Back in the fold has stated in the reply does work. But as I've already stated myself, I do get your point. And I would be one of them who have seen them in free nature. So, no need for you to contradict me.

 

[Ceez]

Overstocked tanks need great filtration, more water changes and meticulous maintenance. If you dont have all 3 of these dont bother as it's not fair to the fish.

Personally those fish are all fairly small and you're in a 55g aquarium I think you'd be just fine. That being said are you planning to quarantine the chili's first? Introducing new fish from the local LFS scares me to death and can bring a whole host of problems. Some of the LFS's are great and they quarantine fish when they get them before they sell but even than its a crap shoot. Stress alone can cause an outbreak.

Whatever you decide to do have a plan in place and good luck

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Can you share a photo of the tank? What plants do you have, and what are you hoping to add? Because a wall of fast growing stem plants at the back of the tank, plus floating plants, could make a big difference in both water quality, and the behaviours of the fish.

You say it looks empty, so if it's fairly bare at the top and middle in terms of plants, that would also explain the cardinals going lower down when you're around. With a back wall of vallis, L.sessilflora, or another thick dense planting that would fill the height at the back of the tank, the fish will feel safer and swim in the open more.

It's best to get the plants in to help with the ammonia of adding new stock anyway, so lets get it planted up, keep your maintenance up and testing the water to see how rapidly nitrates rise can tell you if you're too heavily stocked for you to maintain with plants, filters and water changes.

 

[ella777]

Overstocked tanks need great filtration, more water changes and meticulous maintenance. If you dont have all 3 of these dont bother as it's not fair to the fish.

Personally those fish are all fairly small and you're in a 55g aquarium I think you'd be just fine. That being said are you planning to quarantine the chili's first? Introducing new fish from the local LFS scares me to death and can bring a whole host of problems. Some of the LFS's are great and they quarantine fish when they get them before they sell but even than its a crap shoot. Stress alone can cause an outbreak.

Whatever you decide to do have a plan in place and good luck

Thank you, they would be coming from an online shop, which seems to sell high quality fish. I don't have any suitable quarantine tanks as I know they need to be fully cycled and set up. I haven't had any problems in the past with adding new fish

 

[ella777]

Can you share a photo of the tank? What plants do you have, and what are you hoping to add? Because a wall of fast growing stem plants at the back of the tank, plus floating plants, could make a big difference in both water quality, and the behaviours of the fish.

You say it looks empty, so if it's fairly bare at the top and middle in terms of plants, that would also explain the cardinals going lower down when you're around. With a back wall of vallis, L.sessilflora, or another thick dense planting that would fill the height at the back of the tank, the fish will feel safer and swim in the open more.

It's best to get the plants in to help with the ammonia of adding new stock anyway, so lets get it planted up, keep your maintenance up and testing the water to see how rapidly nitrates rise can tell you if you're too heavily stocked for you to maintain with plants, filters and water changes.

The tank looks fairly sad at the moment, I can take and upload a photo tomorrow. I'm not sure which plants at the moment as I wasn't sure on lighting/low light plants.
Mainly small plants to go on the piece of wood I ordered like anubias. Also the plants I currently have which are elodea densa and a plant I'm not sure of the name (it was second hand, came with the tank)

 

[Ceez]

Thank you, they would be coming from an online shop, which seems to sell high quality fish. I don't have any suitable quarantine tanks as I know they need to be fully cycled and set up. I haven't had any problems in the past with adding new fish

You might want to think about adding a sponge filter/bag of seachem matrix/HOB filter to your existing tank and letting it seed so you can start a hospital tank or even your next tank in the future. Just adds a bit of insurance. I deal with a few people I trust that take great care of their stock and im also guilty of not always quarantining my fish but one day it's gonna bite me and my fish will pay the ultimate price. Fish don't necessarily have to be sick either from your local LFS but just the stress alone from bagging them up and getting them home can cause an outbreak. I have a few tanks with $1000's of dollars worth of fish in them and if I was gonna add extra breeders to those even from the same source at this point I won't take any chances. I should use that same philosophy with all my tanks but impatience can and does sometimes get the best of me.