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How many fish for 85litre tank?

It might be useful to review your lighting. There would be no point in getting an assortment of plants only to have them turn to mush because of insufficient light (or too much).

I took a walk to LFS today and had a long chat with my friend there, he suggests three plants that would work well in my aquarium. Myriophyllum spicatum, Vallisneria spiralis, and Sagittaria subulata, which should all do well with the pH and hardness and all have medium light requirements (he sold me my aquarium so he knows what lights it has). I would have liked a carpeting moss, but they all require bright light, so he suggested I might consider one of the plastic alternatives. Not too keen on them myself, but will give it a try; I can always take it out if I don't like it.
 
Your nitrates are at 20ppm which I consider to be an upper limit unless you have a well planted tank.

The problem with what you say is that many of us have tapwater that has a higher nitrate level than that. The legal maximum in the UK is 50ppm (IIRC), in my particular area, we get 40ppm out of the tap. It's impossible for the average aquarist in this area to get down to 20ppm.

I have a fairly heavily planted tank, so nitrate increase is minimised but I would recommend to people in my area that they don't let it go over 60 (ie 20 above tap).
 
The problem with what you say is that many of us have tapwater that has a higher nitrate level than that. The legal maximum in the UK is 50ppm (IIRC), in my particular area, we get 40ppm out of the tap. It's impossible for the average aquarist in this area to get down to 20ppm.

Well this would explain why I've found it impossible to get the nitrates down below 20ppm. I just read the full water quality report for my area and 20ppm is the minimum, 26ppm is the maximum that they've tested. So at 20ppm, my aquarium water is the same as what's coming out of the tap.
 
I took a walk to LFS today and had a long chat with my friend there, he suggests three plants that would work well in my aquarium. Myriophyllum spicatum, Vallisneria spiralis, and Sagittaria subulata, which should all do well with the pH and hardness and all have medium light requirements (he sold me my aquarium so he knows what lights it has). I would have liked a carpeting moss, but they all require bright light, so he suggested I might consider one of the plastic alternatives. Not too keen on them myself, but will give it a try; I can always take it out if I don't like it.

Carpeting mosses are fine in shrimp tanks, but in fish tanks this can be a problem, depending upon the fish. Some open area is advisable. The Sagittaria will "carpet" to some extent; this plant does not grow particularly well for me, but the near-identical pygmy chain sword does. If I leave it alone, it will readily carpet the substrate, but I can still get down to the sand when I need to. With fish like corys you need some open area so they can naturally sift the sand.
 
The problem with what you say is that many of us have tapwater that has a higher nitrate level than that. The legal maximum in the UK is 50ppm (IIRC), in my particular area, we get 40ppm out of the tap. It's impossible for the average aquarist in this area to get down to 20ppm.

I have a fairly heavily planted tank, so nitrate increase is minimised but I would recommend to people in my area that they don't let it go over 60 (ie 20 above tap).

I believe it's been proven that long term exposure to nitrates above 40ppm results in health issues and shortened life spans. I have high nitrates in my source (well) water so I will post what I do for partial water changes,
 
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Now that it has been raised...nitrates. I went into this subject with Dr. Neale Monks, who has for some time now consistently advised in his articles and online advice that nitrates be kept as low as possible, and no higher than 20 ppm if at all possible. [And so everyone knows, Neale is using our basic aquarium test kits for this number.]

Nitrate is one form of nitrogen, and like ammonia and nitrite, nitrate is also poisonous to all fish. Until fairly recently, research into nitrate has lagged behind ammonia and nitrite, and most just accepted (and many still do) the myth that nitrates are harmless. Sometimes there are incredibly high levels suggested as "safe."

Different species have varying tolerances for nitrate. Studies have also proven that both the level of nitrate and the period of exposure independently affect fish. In other words, the higher the nitrate, or the longer the exposure, whichever, the greater will be the risk to fish.

The effects of exposure to nitrate have not been well studied, but it can generally be considered as one more factor, and a very significant factor, in weakening fish. Like stress, which is connected. The higher the nitrate, or the longer the fish is exposed, the more the fish has to compensate, in a sense, and this is weakening the fish. This in turn can lead to other problems; in cichlids for example, nitrate is now being suggested as a prime factor in malawi bloat and hole in the head disease. There are no external signs of this (unless the nitrate is extreme, when death is usually involved), but the cumulative effect on the fish's metabolism is occurring.

This should not surprise anyone. The natural habitats of the fish species we maintain have nitrates so low they are generally not even detectable with scientific apparatus. Freshwater fish species have evolved over thousands of years to function best in their specific environment. Healthy fish means providing an environment as close as possible to their natural habitat.

Byron.
 
Carpeting mosses are fine in shrimp tanks, but in fish tanks this can be a problem, depending upon the fish. Some open area is advisable. The Sagittaria will "carpet" to some extent; this plant does not grow particularly well for me, but the near-identical pygmy chain sword does. If I leave it alone, it will readily carpet the substrate, but I can still get down to the sand when I need to. With fish like corys you need some open area so they can naturally sift the sand.

I only plan to have guppies, maybe some shrimp at a later date, but that's not certain. Pygmy chain sword was one of the plants LFS and I talked about, but in the end he suggested to go with the Sagittaria because it tolerates a slightly higher pH level so would probably grow better. I might pick up a few of the other and see if they take, they'd be good for the foreground and would look better than one of those horrid plastic things.

Re the nitrate discussion. I'm going to see what happens when the plants are in. Hopefully they can bring the levels down naturally and I won't have to resort to more drastic measures. But I'm in no hurry. I've been preparing my tank for two months already - I figure doing a bit at a time makes it easier, to correct the little problems before they become big ones.
 
Re the nitrate discussion. I'm going to see what happens when the plants are in. Hopefully they can bring the levels down naturally and I won't have to resort to more drastic measures. But I'm in no hurry. I've been preparing my tank for two months already - I figure doing a bit at a time makes it easier, to correct the little problems before they become big ones.

Plants do use nitrate, but this is very limiting. With nitrate at 20 ppm in the source water, you might see it lower than this in the aquarium with fish, but I would not think by much if at all. Remember that nitrate will naturally occur within the aquarium (depending upon the fish load), so this is adding to the 20 ppm in the source water. To make a dent in this, the tank would have to be thick with plants and few or no fish. I have between 0 and 5 ppm nitrate in all my tanks, and they all have plants, including heavy floating which are especially good at using nutrients. I have known aquarists with well planted tanks (low-tech) with zero nitrates, so all of the nitrate occurring within the system was being dealt with by either the plants or denitrification. And the latter is another means of reducing nitrates, but I won't get into that now.

Aquatic plants obviously need nitrogen, as do all higher life forms. But unlike terrestrial plants, aquatic plants generally prefer ammonia/ammonium over nitrite and nitrate as their main source of nitrogen. So in an aquarium, most often the plants will grab the steadily-produced ammonia/ammonium and use it, turning to nitrite/nitrate when ammonia/ammonium is no longer adequate and provided everything else is still sufficient for photosynthesis. The reason they do this is because taking up nitrite or nitrate directly means they must change it back into ammonium, and this is obviously extra work that uses valuable energy, so it is a "last resort" so to speak. Nitrate is taken up directly by a few aquatic plant species, and this plus the rapid use of ammonia/ammonium before the Nitrosomonas bacteria can get it is why nitrate is usually low in planted tanks. With less ammonia/ammonium becoming nitrite, there is less nitrate resulting from the Nitrospira bacteria's oxidation of nitrite to nitrate. As photosynthesis slows, the plants' need for nitrogen obviously lessens accordingly.

The faster the plants grow (photosynthesize), the more nitrogen they need. This is why floating plants are so effective. Being at the surface, they have two real advantages over submersed plants--the brighter light, and the aerial advantage. The latter is the uptake of CO2 directly from the air rather than the water, a process which occurs about four times as rapidly from air. So floating plants will take up more nutrients from the water to balance; they are often referred to as ammonia sinks for this reason, which is why I use them to "cycle" tanks rapidly. Light of course is the driving force behind photosynthesis; with light intensity that is sufficient for the plant (each species has its level), photosynthesis will occur at the maximum rate, provided all other requirements (the nutrients) are met.

Byron.
 
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Plants do use nitrate, but this is very limiting. With nitrate at 20 ppm in the source water, you might see it lower than this in the aquarium with fish, but I would not think by much if at all. Remember that nitrate will naturally occur within the aquarium (depending upon the fish load), so this is adding to the 20 ppm in the source water. To make a dent in this, the tank would have to be thick with plants and few or no fish. I have between 0 and 5 ppm nitrate in all my tanks, and they all have plants, including heavy floating which are especially good at using nutrients. I have known aquarists with well planted tanks (low-tech) with zero nitrates, so all of the nitrate occurring within the system was being dealt with by either the plants or denitrification. And the latter is another means of reducing nitrates, but I won't get into that now.

Interesting. Would it be possible to use an external plant to remove some of the nitrates? Perhaps one that could be trailed over the side of the tank with just roots in the water? I wouldn't be aversed to trying something like that, any maintenance of the aquarium/plants is going to be incorporated into my routine for my many houseplants and the things I grow outside in boxes.

Anyway, I'm not ruling out doing other things to reduce the nitrates, I would just prefer to see what can be achieved naturally first. I live in a small flat and there's not much room for complicated chemical setups.
 
Interesting. Would it be possible to use an external plant to remove some of the nitrates? Perhaps one that could be trailed over the side of the tank with just roots in the water? I wouldn't be aversed to trying something like that, any maintenance of the aquarium/plants is going to be incorporated into my routine for my many houseplants and the things I grow outside in boxes.

Anyway, I'm not ruling out doing other things to reduce the nitrates, I would just prefer to see what can be achieved naturally first. I live in a small flat and there's not much room for complicated chemical setups.

This is understood, and I would likewise want to explore all possible options.

Terrestrial plants with roots in the aquarium has been used by some aquarists. I believe this was mentioned in a thread a few weeks back, though I'd never be able to find it. It seems to have varying success. One thing to watch is that some plants are poisonous to fish when roots or tendrils are in the tank water. Philodendron comes to mind for this, it is extremely toxic. People have had dogs and cats die from licking the milky sap.

The problem here is that you will have an initial influx of nitrate with each water change, and the aim is to get the nitrates out of the water before it enters the aquarium. Michael (AbbeysDad) has gone through this, and just commenced a thread today:
http://www.fishforums.net/posts/3750755/
 
This is understood, and I would likewise want to explore all possible options.

Terrestrial plants with roots in the aquarium has been used by some aquarists. I believe this was mentioned in a thread a few weeks back, though I'd never be able to find it. It seems to have varying success. One thing to watch is that some plants are poisonous to fish when roots or tendrils are in the tank water. Philodendron comes to mind for this, it is extremely toxic. People have had dogs and cats die from licking the milky sap.

The problem here is that you will have an initial influx of nitrate with each water change, and the aim is to get the nitrates out of the water before it enters the aquarium. Michael (AbbeysDad) has gone through this, and just commenced a thread today:
http://www.fishforums.net/posts/3750755/

I can't have Phildendron in the house anyway. I have cats, and the eldest is terrible for trying to eat my houseplants, so I always have to make sure that anything I have is safe should he decide to have a nibble. I was actually thinking more along the lines of a pond plant of some kind, something that would usually grow on the margins and creep along the ground but with roots in the water. Lysimachia, perhaps.

It wouldn't fix all of the problem, but could be used as part solution in conjunction with something else.

I'll go and look at the thread you linked.
 
I have another question.

I'll be ordering my plants next week and they're all fine gravel plants. Do I need anything under the gravel?
 
I have another question.

I'll be ordering my plants next week and they're all fine gravel plants. Do I need anything under the gravel?

No, you do not need and "enriched" substances. Aquarium plants will grow in almost any substrate; the grain size is more important, and here "fine gravel" should cause no issues. I have used this, and a couple times pea gravel which is the largest I would use, and most plants managed even in that. Sand is my preference, as it allows any fish species (some are better with sand).

Liquid comprehensive fertilizer will probably be all you need to add for the plants. Some substrate-rooted plants benefit from substrate tabs, thinking here of the larger swords, lotus/lilies, aponogeton.

Byron.
 
No, you do not need and "enriched" substances. Aquarium plants will grow in almost any substrate; the grain size is more important, and here "fine gravel" should cause no issues. I have used this, and a couple times pea gravel which is the largest I would use, and most plants managed even in that. Sand is my preference, as it allows any fish species (some are better with sand).

Liquid comprehensive fertilizer will probably be all you need to add for the plants. Some substrate-rooted plants benefit from substrate tabs, thinking here of the larger swords, lotus/lilies, aponogeton.

Byron.

Okay, so here is a list of what I have ordered. Would you think that any of these require the substrate tabs you mention? If so I will order them so they'll be here when I'm ready to put the plants in this weekend.

Marsilea hirsuta
Vallisneria spiralis
Echinodorus tellenus
Myriophyllum spicatum
Sagittaria subulata
 
Okay, so here is a list of what I have ordered. Would you think that any of these require the substrate tabs you mention? If so I will order them so they'll be here when I'm ready to put the plants in this weekend.

Marsilea hirsuta
Vallisneria spiralis
Echinodorus tellenus
Myriophyllum spicatum
Sagittaria subulata

No. Substrate tabs are best with large plants like the big swords. All of these plants here (except for Myriophyllum spicatum) spread by runners, and liquid fertilizers will be fine. M. spicatum is a stem plant and benefits more from liquid ferts as well.

BTW, Myriophyllum spicatum is a noxious weed and banned in some countries. It has been introduced everywhere (except Antarctica and Australia I believe) and proven dangerous to the native species, hence the ban. Don't know where you live but you might want to check this.

Byron.
 

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