How long to wait...

[Wills]

Hi quite a few months ago - the end of September, I added a group of Medeka Rice Fish to my 8 gallon tank. It was a bit of an unusual purchase as I asked for 8 but was told 'I'll give you a few more as they are a bit skinny'... now normally I would have just politely said pass and left and never gone back. But I was in Wharf Aquatics (those in the UK will probably know their excellent reputation) so I sort of just allowed it.

I came home and counted that I had 13 fish in the tank and indeed some of them were very skinny, they were in the top rack at the store and I hadn't noticed it as much there. The next morning I came in and 5 had died, tried to feed them some micro pellets I'd bought and perhaps 3 ate. Tried them with some frozen the next day nothing - even got some live daphnia and again most ignored.

By the end of the first week I had 3 left, never lost that many fish that fast so presumed the final 3 would not last much longer but 2 of them are still with me and doing ok.

I've just left the tank for now as I've not known how to treat the tank or any real inclination of what the issue was? Its now 4 months on and I've not had any issues with these last 2 fish or the shrimp or snails in that time - infact snail and shrimp populations are growing...

Do you think I'm safe to add more fish in yet or do you think I should treat the tank with something even though there are no obvious issues? I'm not sure what I want to add, I've never seen Medeka for sale in the UK since these (and that was the first time I'd seen them) but I have found a hobbyist circle that I may be able to get some from. Or I may leave these two in here and add another species such as Emerald or Galaxy Rasboras? But I do like the Medekas ability to thrive in cooler water.

Wills

 

[GaryE]

Medakas became huge in the Asian hobby, in Japan specifically, when the power grid was affected by the tsunami a few years back. They can handle tough conditions easily. This is great, but...

What is a Medaka?. Yeah, that problem again. There are several species, and a lot of linebred variations upon them. So first, I'd identify what I had. Then, personally, I'd add to the group. The dead fish were thin.

I never feed any pellets to small fish, unless I have powdered them in a grinder. It may be a grumpy old man's hate on for the pellet format, but I would go with bug bite flakes or the equivalent. In my world view, pellets are for Corys, not for midwater and surface swimmers.

 

[Wills]

Medakas became huge in the Asian hobby, in Japan specifically, when the power grid was affected by the tsunami a few years back. They can handle tough conditions easily. This is great, but...

What is a Medaka?. Yeah, that problem again. There are several species, and a lot of linebred variations upon them. So first, I'd identify what I had. Then, personally, I'd add to the group. The dead fish were thin.

I never feed any pellets to small fish, unless I have powdered them in a grinder. It may be a grumpy old man's hate on for the pellet format, but I would go with bug bite flakes or the equivalent. In my world view, pellets are for Corys, not for midwater and surface swimmers.

Thanks Gary - the what are Medakas point is interesting as my last 2 have blue eyes which some people say make then Java Medakas but... you get line bred common Medakas that have blue eyes too. Wharf said they were listed as O.Latipes and few people have said they look like Latipes rather than Javanese in body shape. So maybe I'll stick with a few more of them? They are certainly tough, they can survive English winters! I've seen some people in pots under ice!

The pellets are Hikari Micro Pellets which do take a while to sink and do hang in the water a while but with 2 fish in there they only get a tiny amount - with the remainder intended for the shrimp.

But you don't think I'll have issues adding more fish? I've been of that opinion but just a little niggle I wanted a nod on.

 

[GaryE]

You asked the million dollar/pound/euro question there. Maybe fish remain carriers after a wipeout, maybe they don't. There is no answer - it's a matter of your tolerance to risk. It could be the same in 2 years, and it might have been fine 2 days after the last fish died.

It's so rare for us to really know what killed the fish in the first place.

When I have a disease outbreak here, and have stragglers survive, I wait until I really want to put something else in.

My only "rule" is to avoid mixing farmed and wild caught, since the diseases farmed fish carry and control can decimate healthy arrivals from the wild. But you won't be getting wild Medakas.

I kept them once, years and years ago, and I've seen them in stores rarely here.

 

[ChasingFish]

Well, it's been four months since the last deaths? I think I'd be okay adding more fish at this point if it were me, but another option would be to go ahead and treat the remaining two (just in case)...such as with the trio recommended by aquarium co-op: Fritz Maracyn, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, and Fritz ParaCleanse (what is actually recommended is to treat all "new" fish with the treatment, but since it's your existing fish that you are concerned about - maybe just do them all together, new and old?

 

[Slaphppy7]

Never medicate fish unless you know what disease or ailment you are trying to treat.

I'd roll the dice, and add more rice fish, if you can find them

 

[Wills]

Thanks guys - think I'll try it.

I did look at using some 'light' meds like Esha but there is a risk they can poison fish that eat snails that come into contact with it... and the snails from this tank feed my puffers.

 

[seangee]

Its a dilemma indeed. I am facing similar. Around a month ago I decided my Thai tank needed more variety and added a small group of trigonostigma espei (the shop only had 8). I quarantined for a week and added them to the tank as they were all thriving. A couple of weeks later I thought my microdevario kubotai population had declined so I studied them closely. I thought I may have seen a spot on one of the young ones so turned the temp up by a couple of degrees so that if it turned out to be ich I was already on the way to treatment. The next morning there was not one microdevario kubotai left alive. I also found a dead sid and the rest seemed to be really struggling. No visible sign of ich but their slime coats were working overtime and their fins were ragged. 90% water change added salt and upped the temp again. I did test the water and there was no trace of ammonia or nitrite. I was unable to save the remaining sids. That was a week ago because I still have one week at 30.5 degrees. I know the temp is not the issue because the tank regularly gets to that in summer. Annoyingly every one of the lambchops has survived and none have ever shown any sign of distress. So now I have my one and only species tank. Not brave enough to move them elsewhere and shut down the tank (sensible option because I only started it because the sids are not a good mix in any of the other tanks). I'm also nervous about buying any new fish for this tank - and at the price it certainly won't be a group of sids!!! And there is no point in treating the tank when I have no idea what to treat for.

And there is a knock-on effect. After searching everywhere in the UK for years (literally) for nannostomus marginatus to replace the ones in the SA tank that the sids took a liking to about 4 years ago; the online store where I got the lambchops finally has some in stock. Part of me says get the company for the 2 in the community tank, and a very big part of me says its not worth the risk. I have also read somewhere that their expected lifespan is three years. As mine are at least 4 years old (possibly much older but it was the only species successfully breeding without intervention in that tank - so they may have been fry) I guess they are doing OK with cardinals for company, although they rarely interact with them.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Sounds like wasting disease. I normally treat that using Flubendazole, But forget that in the UK. If the treatment works the fish do not die and will begin to fatten back up. The fact that you have two survivors for the amount of time you reprot, it would suggest they have beaten the disease, especially if they are back to a proper bulk and eating normally. It is also possible they had/have a greaer immunity defense than the others. Either way, if it were my tank and fish I wiuld be inclined to add more. If you want to safer, ad only part fo the number you want to add rather than all of them.

If the new fish and the old fish are doing fine after at least a month and longer if possible, then you should be OK to add more.

Here is a paper from Dr, Charles Harrison which talks about wasting and flubendazole. Even though you may not get this med, it may be helpful to read it. Here some salient paragraphs:

"Eradicating Hydra and Other Pests with Flubendazole
From: Journal of the American Killifish Association
September/October 2003 Vol.36, No. 5
By Charles Harrison, Ph.D.

This article is first about hydra and its eradication. Secondly, it is about a lot of relief from some of the most hideous afflictions of tropical aquarium fish, including wasting disease, which is often associated with the presence of Hexamita, a protozoan parasite, and velvet disease, a common scourge of captive killifish which is associated with the presence of Oodinium or Oodinium-like organisms..........

In the summer of 1999 I published an article entitled “The Hydra Kill” in several hobbyist newsletters. In these I summarized my experimental use of most of these remedies in attempts to eradicate hydra. Not withstanding the damage it caused the fish, plants, and snails, it turned out that formalin was the best hydra killer…the best of the worst, so to speak.

Several people from the AKA’s “KillieTalk” e-mail list recommended Flubendazole for treatment1. Flubendazole is an intestinal worm killer, an anthelmintic or vermicidal drug that destroys or dispels parasitic roundworms and tapeworms and seems to be an effective treatment
against at least this one Cniderian. The recommended dosage was 1/2-teaspoon of 5% powder in 30 gallons of water. This dosage totally wiped out the hydra in about three days…goodbye hydra!

The hydra-killing Flubendazole that I used in my office aquarium to eradicate hydra led me to a larger realization. The “wasting” fish in that tank seemed to become cured when I added Flubendazole to the water. Whoa! This was quite a remarkable revelation. My intent was to
remove the hydra and any possible nematodes and, to my surprise, the disease I have found to be associated with a particular protozoan species was cured."

Full paper available here http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleArticle.pdf

 

[Essjay]

I normally treat that using Flubendazole, But forget that in the UK.

Flubendazole is available in the UK if anyone needs it. There are a couple of products I know of, -
NT Labs Anti Fluke and Wormer
Kusuri Aquarium Discus and Tropical Fish Wormer

 

[Wills]

Really awesome info here.

@TwoTankAmin @Essjay thanks for the meds recommendation - just looked it up and not safe for snail and shrimp which is the other aspect that I don't want to effect as my colony of both seem to be really good at the moment. I have a group of rams horn snails that don't seem to eat plants either which is really good and don't want to risk losing them.

 

[Naughts]

And there is a knock-on effect. After searching everywhere in the UK for years (literally) for nannostomus marginatus to replace the ones in the SA tank that the sids took a liking to about 4 years ago; the online store where I got the lambchops finally has some in stock.

Sweet Knowle Aquatics have Dwarf Pencilfish in stock. They deliver and their fish are excellent quality.

 

[Naughts]

Sounds like wasting disease.

Does that kill so fast - 10 in a week?
Maybe they were so weak and then the journey from the store tipped them over the edge??

 

[Wills]

Does that kill so fast - 10 in a week?
Maybe they were so weak and then the journey from the store tipped them over the edge??

I lost a good 8 in two maybe three days they must have been sick in the store and I missed it.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The fish were already skinny at the store. There is no way to know how long they may have been affected. That meant they were in a weakened state at the store. Combine the stress of bagging, transport and new conditions may have been enough to push them over the line.

Basically, wasting normally takes some time to kill fish. They will be eating even as they are losing weight. They may stop eating in the end when they are close to dying.

Most fish stores do not quarantine new fish for any amount of time, some may do it for a short time. More will proactively treat and cross their fingers and some do nothing.

The flubendazole I get comes with the following instructions from Dr. Harrison

*Dissolving the Flubendazole compound may be difficult. Two methods work for me,
1. Take out a large cup or microwave safe bowl of tank water. Heat it in the microwave until
it is too hot to touch - not boiling, just hot. Add the required 10% Flubendazole powder to hot
water and stir to dissolve. Allow it to cool some and gradually pour the solution into the tank to
be treated.
2. In a small measuring cup or large spoon, add the required 10% Flubendazole powder. Add
several drops of unflavored Vodka to the powder to begin a slurry and then almost a solution.
Don’t add more than half again as much powder you are working with. Stir in all well and then
thoroughly mix the slurry into the tank to be treated.

I use the vodka method as it means I must keep a bottle of Stolichnaya in the freezer.

edited for spelling and typos