How Bad Would It Be?

[kj23502]

Hi everyone....ok maybe a common newbie ??? or so!! but I've never had to acclimatize to different water parameters. My cichlids all came from the LFS and mail order at a ph of 8 and that's what my tank is(and all my other community tanks were ph of 7 and so were the fish I bought).....

Well I'd like to add a couple bristlenose's to my cichlid tank and the LFS said they keep them at a PH of 7 and mine is PH 8.....

I'm worried about shocking them and killing them...would that do that with this type of adustment? If so, what's the best(and easiest) way to adjust them first

 

[SuperColey1]

It would be no problem to put most fish that 'prefer' Ph7 into Ph8 or into Ph6.

The most important thing is that it is a stable Ph.

There are some sensitive fish that are an exception to this but not ones that you are likely to find in your average LFS.

So go ahead.

Andy

 

[Colin_T]

put them in a quarantine tank with a PH of 7 and gradually increase it to 8.

if you don't have a spare tank then put it in a big bucket and allow water to drip from the main tank into the bucket with the fish. Have an airstone bubbling away in the bucket. Over the course of a day the bucket will fill up and the fish will hopefully have acclimated to the higher PH.

 

[johanv]

Hi everyone....ok maybe a common newbie ??? or so!! but I've never had to acclimatize to different water parameters. My cichlids all came from the LFS and mail order at a ph of 8 and that's what my tank is(and all my other community tanks were ph of 7 and so were the fish I bought).....

Well I'd like to add a couple bristlenose's to my cichlid tank and the LFS said they keep them at a PH of 7 and mine is PH 8.....

I'm worried about shocking them and killing them...would that do that with this type of adustment? If so, what's the best(and easiest) way to adjust them first

Very bad if you just dump the fish in the tank. The best way to introduce the new fish will be to place the bag in the tank, turn down the top of the bag a couple of times in order to form a rim, the air trapped in the rim will keep the bag afloat.

Next grab a cup (obviously thoroughly rinsed) and scoop water from the tank into the bag at a rate of 1 cup every 5 minutes till the bag is filled to the brim. Then syphon out half of the water from the bag and repeat the process of adding water to the bag. Once the bag is filled again you can tip the bag into the tank. This process should provide the fish with a pretty smooth transistion into the higher pH tank.

An alternative would be to house the new fish in a quarantine tank and steadily raise the pH (the recommended is 0.2pH increase every 24 hours).

So if you have a quarantine tank i would suggest using the alternative option as it will also give you time to see if any diseases are present (2 week quarantine period).

 

[kj23502]

Ok...gives me reason to buy another tank!!! LOL....I have one that I'll use for a fry tank, but it's PH is already 8 with a pleco, snail in it! I was thinking of getting a 10 gallon emergency tank anyways...I have a sponge filter in my 125 gallon tank that I can move out and put into the 10 gallon for filtration...but I'm guessing that won't be necessary since it won't be in there for too long!!! Just do my WC right?!

 

[johanv]

That's the danger - always having a reason for a new tank!

I'd make a sponge filter for the tank (if you want to keep costs down) and leave it in the quarantine tank. During the quarantine period I'd continue with water changes on a daily basis sdepending on the size and number of fish in quarantine, especially plecs who tend to be pretty messy at the best of times.

 

[kj23502]

I have the sponge filter ready (in an existing tank) so I have something that I can easily move to instantly cycle a new tank!! It shouldn't affect the other tank by taking it out(it has 2 eheim proII 2028's running on it!)

Thanks for the replies everyone!!

 

[Bignose]

An alternative would be to house the new fish in a quarantine tank and steadily raise the pH (the recommended is 0.2pH increase every 24 hours).

The phrase in parentheses there is utter nonsense. Fish in the wild experience large pH swings as a daily occurrence. Ponds and Lakes routinely change over 1 full pH unit (even up to 2 pH units) per day as the sun comes out, heats up the water, the aquatic plants become active then another change back in pH as the sun goes down, the water cools, and the plants cease activity for the day. The fish in the wild adapt just fine, why must the fish in the home aquarium be treated so gingerly?

Even more dramatic is when sudden rains quickly fill up small ponds and streams. Most of the time, the rain water, and the runoff is not the same pH as the body of water it is draining into. The pH swings there can be more than 1 unit in a matter of minutes -- yet there aren't fish kills every time it rains. Can you cite any scientific evidence that says that 0.2 pH units per day is necessary?

We had a good discussion on this last year, and I hope you'll read through it: http/www.fishforums.net/content/forum/20...-Home-Aquarium/

The major conclusion is that it is in fact hardness that is the usual culprit for "pH shock". Fish are incredibly adaptable as adjusting their internal bodily fluids' pH. They can adjust their internal pH as quickly as 4 pH units per hour if needed. But if and only if the mineral content -- what we call the hardness -- is favorable. Details in the above link.

So, to the OP, the pH is different by 1 unit, but how similar are the hardnesses? If the hardnesses is similar (within a degree or two), you can in all likelihood just plop it in. If the hardnesses are different, I would go with the quarantine tank/mixing new tank water with old tank water idea. But, it isn't going to be a process that takes days to finish. Maybe 5 hours or so, at the most.

Now as to whether you should quarantine them before introduction to the main tank.... that's a different story. You probably really should quarantine them for at least 3 weeks to make sure that they don't develop any symptoms of disease. You will want to treat only a few fish in a smaller tank as that is much easier than treating a tank full of fish in a large tank.

 

[Colin_T]

Some fish experience huge PH swings but most fish don't. Most waterways are huge and very few of them are full of plants or algae. The amount of plant matter in most ponds, creeks, lakes and streams is not going to cause massive PH fluctuations during the day. Small heavily planted ponds will but most large water bodies will not.

When we have lots of rainfall in Australia there are fish kills. If there is a small amount of rainfall over an extended period of time it isn't so bad because the water level only rises a few millimeters over the course of several hours. But if you get flash flooding as often happens in many tropical climates then you do get fish losses. However, it's not all caused by PH swings. It can be brought about by excessive sediment and silt clogging up the fish’s gills. And also temperature changes. And before everyone jumps on the bandwagon and has a go at me, there are plenty of waterways in Australia that reach 30+ degrees C in summer. If it rains heavily and a flood fills these smaller water bodies there is a sudden drop in water temperature and a combination of these factors kill the fish.

We try to keep our fishes in a stress free environment so they hopefully live longer. By changing the PH slowly over a course of days, you are minimising the amount of stress placed on the already stressed out fish.

 

[Bignose]

Colin, I think you underestimate how much the pH changes in nature. It isn't even so much the plant life in the waterways (which can affect the pH) but the temperature change. As the bodies of water heat up during the day and cool down during the night, the pH can change quite a lot. Definitely more than 0.2 pH units a day. It would be an exceptionally rare body of water that does NOT change by more than 0.2 pH units during a typical day. Some of the really large bodies of water, like the Rift Lakes in Aftrica, have pH gradients in them -- and the fish travel through these gradients to perform their daily activities. I.e. they may feed in one place, then digest in another and bunker down for the night in a third.

A lot of this is that pH is really just a different way of writing very small numbers. A pH of 7.0, for example, is the same as saying the concentration of H+ ions is 0.000 000 1 moles/L That is a tiny number. It doesn't take much to change that to 0.000 000 2 moles/L which is a pH of 6.7. In pH units, it looks huge because is a change of 0.3 pH units, but that is change in a very small number. Or, go the other way, 0.000 000 05 moles/L is a pH of 7.3.

0.000 000 1 moles / L weighs around 0.000 000 1 grams of mass. That's one microgram (NOT milligram -- microgram). One microgram of mass per liter. That is a tiny, tiny amount -- yet it is reflected in a large change in pH. If you went to 10 micrograms per liter (still a really tiny amount) that could be a change of a whole pH unit (from 7.0). The whole pH unit looks like it is a big change, but in fact, it is really just a tiny, tiny change in terms of the big picture of the water.

 

[johanv]

Not getting drawn into an obviously lengthy discussion, but my suggestion on gradual pH increase should be read in context of the entire post and not jumping on an snipped.

I approach fishkeeping on a holistic basis, hence the gradual raise of pH in a quarantine tank - ensuring a. that any diseases are caught early on before introduction into a main tank, b. to make the transition to a new tank with different parameters as stressfree as possible.

I believe that there will always be different thoughts on aquatics and readers should not always take everything for gospel, but take an approach which is in the interest of their fish. Each entitled to his/her own opinion as long as the interest of the fish is placed first.

 

[Colin_T]

I think you meant to say stress free rather than stressful

b. to make the transition to a new tank with different parameters as stressfull as possible.

 

[SuperColey1]

I will stick to what I said earlier. 1Ph is nothing to a fish. I wasn't going to get into hardness because this is not a subject to lambast a newbie with.

Some like me cannot afford to have 2 tanks nor have room for 2 tanks so I don't quarantine.

I put the fish from the shop in their bag into the water, over the course of 2 hours i tip a bit in and tip a bit out. After 2 hours I release them.

Never had a death.

I then run a 15 day course of Sterazin to kill off any parasites that may be introduced.

Never had a death.

Hardness is a different ball game totally and not really to be pushed onto someone asking for simple advice on wether or not they can safely put their fish into their tank.

An LFS (unless using RO) will have relatively the same water as you will have in your home (hence LFS being LOCAL fish shop) If you watch them they don't spend 5 days making the transition from delivery to putting them in their tanks. They cannot afford to and the bags they will be delivered in will quite often have water from another country in them!!

At the end of the day, follow the instructions on the bag if they came from a chain store or just acclimitise them over the space of 2-5 hours with the lights off (if you wish). This method should work for the majority of fish you can buy from your LFS.

Colin - I am surprised there are any wild fish left in Australia from the tales we've been hearing about fishkills!!!

As for 0.2ph I think every planted person is going to laugh at this statement or maybe they will go 'yikes. I never knew that' and remove their fish from CO2 enriched tanks which will go up and down 1Ph EVERY day intentionally if using a solenoid valve.

this forum over the past few months has been geting filled with the old wive's tales (and some new) that people used to throw around and it is not for the better. Too much bad advice on planted tanks from the old school phosphate/nitrate haters is leading newbie planters to the abyss of algae filled tanks, and the anaerobic pocket gangs are leading people away from sand which is much more like the natural habitats of most fish when they arew supposedly

Each entitled to his/her own opinion as long as the interest of the fish is placed first.

<----Therfore give them the substrate they would have in the wild which is sand-minute gravel with some pebbles in it.

Rant over but getting very frustrated these days on this forum!!!

Andy

 

[Colin_T]

Colin - I am surprised there are any wild fish left in Australia from the tales we've been hearing about fishkills!!!

LOL
fish tales or fish tails

we have a few left but heaps die every year. In the south west of WA pools dry up at the end of summer and literally hundreds of fish get taken by birds or just dry out in each pool. The same applies out in the desert when Lake Ayre dries out. There are thousands and thousands of dead fish carcasses everywhere. And there are more bodies when the rivers flood. However some always survive and they produce heaps of eggs that hatch and usually go on to reach maturity.

When the rivers flood you can see fish leaping and swimming ahead of the rushing water. If you stick a net in the rushing water you usually get a few bodies. And after the floods there are bodies drying out on the banks.

 

[johanv]

Think I'll just go put a pane of glass in a lake and watch the fish there since that would be most natural

And that is said tongue in the cheek to those who are "100% correct"

Thanks for pointing out the mistake Col, edited the post from *ull to *ree