Syphoniera
Fish Herder
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- Sep 8, 2008
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Hi, (unisex terminology) guys,
I really do need some info ASAP from some brilliant, Harlequin-knowledgeable person, and I'm afraid that if I start rewriting this throughout-the-day-between-fish-fussing stream-of-consciousness litany of too-tired-to-think-straight-panic at 5:00 AM in some attempt to make sense out of it and cut the stupidest/found to be redundant bits, there won't be anything left...
I've recently acquired 6 Harlequins, and if any readers will pardon the length of this post, on the grounds that some detail may catch someone in mid-snore to cry 'Aha - it's obviously...', here's the background.
The computer was down (darn Murphy and his silly laws anyway) and, while I'd looked into various micro rasboras, I hadn't at that point specifically investigated Harlequins which could, as far as I knew, well have been an entirely different kettle of fish in all, rather than some, respects, although I was aware that they'd long been regarded as a moderately hardy aquarium fish.
Appalling, I know, but somehow, leading a deprived life as I certainly have, I've never had rasboras before - by any name, so to speak, and darned if I can sort out what fish is in which group anymore...
In any event, as the Walstad (El Natural 15 gallon, soil under gravel, approximately 80-90 individual plants installed counting separate stems of 4-leaf clover and various bits of stem plants apart from crypts and some larger cuttings - actually tried a rough count while recovering from the effort, no wonder it takes so nit-picking long to do even a small tank) for which they were intended was entirely empty even of snails, I felt it was worth the risk to quarantine them not in the bare, sterile q tank but in the soft, acidic-type water provided in their eventual home, as they'd likely share similar requirements to the ones I'd been researching at least to that degree and could reasonably be expected to do much better there.
They all looked like Halloween cut-outs at first, very black-and-pale (gradually colouring up rather nicely now) had ragged fins (appeared to be torn, not rotted, mostly grown back now and proudly carried high, although re-torn a bit in displaying) with one showing a white speck near the end of the tail which could at that point have been either ich or fungus; I added a combo of Melafix and Pimafix and, assuming they were likely med-sensitive, (luckily, as they apparently are,) a half-dose of Quick Cure - but on the holiday Monday, (
damn you, Murphy!!!) it became evident that the spread of the white blight (NOT speckles, but a lumpy mass, almost small-eggy looking, very strange) was rapidly worsening, in a long, narrow oval shape moving in toward the body, while the tail also abruptly split overnight up the centre right to the body. (Poor thing was twitching that tail like crazy - it must have been dreadful.)
I added a large dose (within safe levels) of Sulfathiazole (wide-range - gets a number of bacterial, fungal and protozoan pests) as well as the other medications, having upped the Pimafix (had another bottle) and dropping the Melafix (as I was running out).
The tail split healed completely within 2 or 3 days, while the large white cluster dropped off one night, complete with some of the affected tail area, leaving a creamy-white surround and some white speckling in other tail areas.
All this has since cleared - but what the heck was it?
Got the computer use back and can't find anything quite like that Googling fish diseases - although luckily for me saw multiple Harlequin references on this very interesting forum, which is why I'm here rambling hysterically.
I'd like to stop the Quick Cure as there's been no sign of identifiable ich, and as the Sulfathiazole evidently does cover what seems likely to have been another type of protozoan infestation and I'm chewing nails (pulled out of the rafters while climbing the walls, actually) over potential toxicity from unnecessary meds, but can't be certain that the combination of the three meds wasn't what resulted in the current improvement - and that this horror isn't still potentially active in the tank.
Was it killed, or merely hatched and burrowing into the gravel?
Any ideas, gentle reader, bearing in mind that I'm flat broke (sob) and can't load up on more meds right now, and would rather not haul the fish out into the q tank for a high salt, PolyGuard or other potentially plant-damaging treatment, as they're doing well in SOME respects...???
I do have some other meds around, and might be able to match/approximate somebody's suggestions, if any are made, although I really need to get snails in there, as of weeks ago.
I've had these fish, I guess, (she who never sleeps having accuracy issues) roughly a couple of weeks now, and their behavior seems so far to have been unusual as compared to various other fish I have in that they initially didn't investigate anything in their new home (species behaviour? No checking out plants except for breeding and very specific feeding, [eggs presumed to sometimes be produced due to a little snacking - sigh - by certain fish who shall remain unnamed] but sometimes complete with male tail over female under leaves as seen on several occasions with different fish, 3, incidentally, being larger than the other 3, the smaller also being coppery while the others are increasingly showing a lovely purple tint under daylight and have a powder blue or green stripe, depending on angle of lighting) but, as generally described, do loosely school in the most open area, despite the blast from the Aquaclear not yet adequately baffled by plant growth along the back wall.
But one had arrived with the 1st ray of its dorsal torn loose and standing alone, with suspicious black tipping, and that and one other of the small ones had a single partially black ray (these black portions quite solid and looking almost like a poop permanently hanging, at first glance) on their ventrals; not only a tipping but a black edging is beginning to appear on the INSIDE next-to-body portion of various fins of even the others. (Note: checked again following the orgy later described, [adult warning] only the black tipping and nasty black danglies remain - the black on inside fin-edges therefore potentially mood related. ???)
Their colouration continues to alter and improve pretty much on a daily basis - but I can't recall any mention of black being normally present on a Harley's finnage - and the thin black elongated blobbys on the ventrals clearly CANNOT be normal.
For all I know, the more general blackening of the fins could be due to anything from mood to - in part - a response to chemical toxicity from the Quick Cure which, alternatively, may be saving their lives. ??? Any expert suggestions??? Please!!!???
In some ways, the concerns regarding potentially improper medication rival those creating the need.
For about the first ten days a small water change of 1 - 1 & 1/2 gallons was conducted daily, without, however, recalculating/topping-up meds added at different times throughout the day, with one larger change (did re-add 2 drops of the usual 7 of Quick-cure there - treat for 3 days, leave one, usually: off-treatment day but didn't want to chance a set-back having removed 6 gallons total, together with proportionate degree of built-up medication - after the due addition of Sulfathiazole, with the Pimafix a while later) of three gallons twice, with a break between after refilling, so as not to create too-drastic sudden change, and have just now altered to water-changing every three days when the Sulfathiazole's added; due to the lightly rooted and fairly dense planting, the bottom can only be properly cleaned in the one soilless area mostly covered by a fair-sized piece of slate, used as a feeding/pouring area, and while the Harleys are certainly quick feeders, once down, food has to be (somehow) located and removed as they evidently don't employ the '30 second still edible rule' for food hitting the ground. (Neither do I - I can totally empathize.
Once snails are in, and the pygmy cats I hope to be able to add at the end of the month, such concerns will dissipate as rapidly as will such stray foodstuff.)
The first few days, as the larger 3 Harleys were so thin, I supplied 4 small feeds daily, then 3 feeds a day for a week or so, and have just gone to two slightly larger: generally, crushed Nutrafin Betta flakes, frozen bloodworms (I have a Central Mud Minnow who eats nothing but these or starves himself, pouting, the rest being divided on a rotating basis among different tanks, but the Harley's have been getting them daily - if this is a bad thing for one of two feedings, somebody tell me please!!! they'll likely go on rotation with the others soon anyway, and I won't tell them who said so) Hikari Micro Wafers, and sometimes a messy, evil combination of daphnia and krill which can only be fed in tanks getting cleaned and having filters rinsed that day.
Haven't tried them yet on the weekly pea-feed, although the Bettas aren't the only ones to relish these...
Thought I'd wait for cleaning reinforcements as tiny bits of pea are virtually impossible to find among greenery until the mold spreads to the foliage.
One of the larger Harley's (not the one with the previous tail issues) has twice (assuming this is the same one - once, soon after arrival, and again some days later, and could be entirely invisible whenever I'm not watching, for all I know) gone pale to the point where his(?) black marking disappeared and his(?) innards were actually visible.
On the second occasion, his(?) colour returned the instant I fed, and haven't seen this for a while, but the odd time he does look pale and a bit blurry/almost coated, temporarily.
Respiration seems to be OK, never any flicking or obvious indication of parasites - and again I'm wondering if this could potentially be related to chemical toxicity...???
Any thoughts/experience/suggestions?
I've lowered the heat from 80F to 78F despite the sickness issue, in case this is too stressful/oxygen-depleting - different sites give different info as to preferred temps for Harleys, although one said they breed at 80F. (Mine bred - and sometimes apparently just went through the motions - both at 80F and at 78F, evidently to provide party snacks...)
At what temps do the experienced here find their Harlequins to be happiest and healthiest?
How stressful are higher but normally moderate temps of 80F or of the 84-86F often used short-term in ich treatments?
Some sites give an impression of potential stress even at 80F - what do your Harleys think about that?
JUST WENT TO CHECK ON THE HARLEY'S - ONE OF THE SMALLER ONES NOW APPEARS TO BE PALE AND CONFUSED, not sure if she (I think a she?) actually flicked or just ran into a plant, as she keeps swimming in the area in front of the filter (mid-tank, hard to avoid, though they don't try or seem to be bothered; otherwise I'd rig a baffle/change filters rather than wait for plants to bush out) and gets blown a bit.
Her little mouth keeps opening and closing, although she's not attempting to surface to gulp air or anything drastic and I fear ( Murphy!!!) I've jinxed things by just now thinking various nasty parasite/diseases didn't seem likely...???
They had a water change last night and I was just going to change over to every three days to allow the sulfathiazole to work fully, since we now seem to have the feeding thing pretty much down to a 'no morsel shall fall' science, but tempted to do one now, to reduce meds in case??? Or to produce more resistant black danglies...?
What with all the worrying, I know darn well I'm paranoid.
Yes, I've been frequently getting up and turning around to check on them at night - they're right behind the head of my bed; yes, if I slept I'd probably think more clearly and panic less; yes, the nightmarish curse has come home to roost - I'm turning into my Mother.
Just checked again, and they're having another orgy: saw two different pairs periodically in the shrubbery doing the belly-rub-on-leaf-male-tail-curling-over/under-female (depending on whether on top or under the leaves) thing.
Pretty sure one was the pale one, as far as I could tell - between the leaves and the male and all the giggling going on between the pairs, hard to identify individuals, but she did swim toward the front from that direction, still pale.
According to info on all sites seen so far, they likely wouldn't be breeding in bad/toxic water conditions???
Could some simply become pale from too much partying in the bushes?
What the heck is with the black on their fins, which (if not merely some colouration issue appearing together with the yellow/red originally virtually absent) I'd assume was early fin-rot the meds should have cured, and especially with the solid-looking thick black on the ventral rays?
Sorry about the hysterics, but it's horrible that these poor fish have weird diseases I haven't even been able to identify, and that, while one problem's cleared, (knocks wood - knuckles thunk on head - dog barks and runs to door) another seems to be worsening, potentially due to meds I'm administering - and all the while they become otherwise more beautiful...
One mystery may be explained: I'd delayed the evening feed due to the party then going on, and just went in to do so.
Couldn't figure out what one of the little ones was carrying in its mouth until it spat it out, again grabbed and repositioned it: a tiny, slender but relatively long green 'twig' evidently from some cardamine Lyrata.
It appeared to be trying to eat it
I assumed that feeding would cause the little one to abandon the twig, doing so ASAP, giving about a half-dozen mini wafers at a time, several times, watching the wafers as well as those consuming them to make sure none were blown off course to fall and rot, uneaten, realizing later that only 5 Harleys were present up front, with one agitated small fish off to one side behaving rather as one would expect of a fish swallowing a relatively stiff and undigestible twig.
Would a fish actually swallow something that could puncture its stomach?
Is life so bad in my tank that suicide is preferable?
Considering how often my cooking could pass as burnt offerings, if I retroactively dedicate these dinners as a sacrifice to Neptune, will he relent and cease this torture of my Harleys?
Actually, she's looking better now, although I can see I'll be up all night again, checking...
The Hikari wafers are stated to contain spirulina - do the Harlequins require a high level of greens?
I surely can't be underfeeding - the small ones, who hog the bulk of food, are rounded and I've actually been stuffing them silly,
although the number of feedings has admittedly halved - and I thought their diet as given should be fairly balanced...
Would experienced Harlequin people recommend a higher level of vegetable feeding?
Who will unmask the mystery of Harlequin?
Anybody still awake out there?
Certainly not me...
I really do need some info ASAP from some brilliant, Harlequin-knowledgeable person, and I'm afraid that if I start rewriting this throughout-the-day-between-fish-fussing stream-of-consciousness litany of too-tired-to-think-straight-panic at 5:00 AM in some attempt to make sense out of it and cut the stupidest/found to be redundant bits, there won't be anything left...
I've recently acquired 6 Harlequins, and if any readers will pardon the length of this post, on the grounds that some detail may catch someone in mid-snore to cry 'Aha - it's obviously...', here's the background.
The computer was down (darn Murphy and his silly laws anyway) and, while I'd looked into various micro rasboras, I hadn't at that point specifically investigated Harlequins which could, as far as I knew, well have been an entirely different kettle of fish in all, rather than some, respects, although I was aware that they'd long been regarded as a moderately hardy aquarium fish.
Appalling, I know, but somehow, leading a deprived life as I certainly have, I've never had rasboras before - by any name, so to speak, and darned if I can sort out what fish is in which group anymore...
In any event, as the Walstad (El Natural 15 gallon, soil under gravel, approximately 80-90 individual plants installed counting separate stems of 4-leaf clover and various bits of stem plants apart from crypts and some larger cuttings - actually tried a rough count while recovering from the effort, no wonder it takes so nit-picking long to do even a small tank) for which they were intended was entirely empty even of snails, I felt it was worth the risk to quarantine them not in the bare, sterile q tank but in the soft, acidic-type water provided in their eventual home, as they'd likely share similar requirements to the ones I'd been researching at least to that degree and could reasonably be expected to do much better there.
They all looked like Halloween cut-outs at first, very black-and-pale (gradually colouring up rather nicely now) had ragged fins (appeared to be torn, not rotted, mostly grown back now and proudly carried high, although re-torn a bit in displaying) with one showing a white speck near the end of the tail which could at that point have been either ich or fungus; I added a combo of Melafix and Pimafix and, assuming they were likely med-sensitive, (luckily, as they apparently are,) a half-dose of Quick Cure - but on the holiday Monday, (
damn you, Murphy!!!) it became evident that the spread of the white blight (NOT speckles, but a lumpy mass, almost small-eggy looking, very strange) was rapidly worsening, in a long, narrow oval shape moving in toward the body, while the tail also abruptly split overnight up the centre right to the body. (Poor thing was twitching that tail like crazy - it must have been dreadful.)I added a large dose (within safe levels) of Sulfathiazole (wide-range - gets a number of bacterial, fungal and protozoan pests) as well as the other medications, having upped the Pimafix (had another bottle) and dropping the Melafix (as I was running out).
The tail split healed completely within 2 or 3 days, while the large white cluster dropped off one night, complete with some of the affected tail area, leaving a creamy-white surround and some white speckling in other tail areas.
All this has since cleared - but what the heck was it?
Got the computer use back and can't find anything quite like that Googling fish diseases - although luckily for me saw multiple Harlequin references on this very interesting forum, which is why I'm here rambling hysterically.
I'd like to stop the Quick Cure as there's been no sign of identifiable ich, and as the Sulfathiazole evidently does cover what seems likely to have been another type of protozoan infestation and I'm chewing nails (pulled out of the rafters while climbing the walls, actually) over potential toxicity from unnecessary meds, but can't be certain that the combination of the three meds wasn't what resulted in the current improvement - and that this horror isn't still potentially active in the tank.
Was it killed, or merely hatched and burrowing into the gravel?
Any ideas, gentle reader, bearing in mind that I'm flat broke (sob) and can't load up on more meds right now, and would rather not haul the fish out into the q tank for a high salt, PolyGuard or other potentially plant-damaging treatment, as they're doing well in SOME respects...???
I do have some other meds around, and might be able to match/approximate somebody's suggestions, if any are made, although I really need to get snails in there, as of weeks ago.
I've had these fish, I guess, (she who never sleeps having accuracy issues) roughly a couple of weeks now, and their behavior seems so far to have been unusual as compared to various other fish I have in that they initially didn't investigate anything in their new home (species behaviour? No checking out plants except for breeding and very specific feeding, [eggs presumed to sometimes be produced due to a little snacking - sigh - by certain fish who shall remain unnamed] but sometimes complete with male tail over female under leaves as seen on several occasions with different fish, 3, incidentally, being larger than the other 3, the smaller also being coppery while the others are increasingly showing a lovely purple tint under daylight and have a powder blue or green stripe, depending on angle of lighting) but, as generally described, do loosely school in the most open area, despite the blast from the Aquaclear not yet adequately baffled by plant growth along the back wall.
But one had arrived with the 1st ray of its dorsal torn loose and standing alone, with suspicious black tipping, and that and one other of the small ones had a single partially black ray (these black portions quite solid and looking almost like a poop permanently hanging, at first glance) on their ventrals; not only a tipping but a black edging is beginning to appear on the INSIDE next-to-body portion of various fins of even the others. (Note: checked again following the orgy later described, [adult warning] only the black tipping and nasty black danglies remain - the black on inside fin-edges therefore potentially mood related. ???)
Their colouration continues to alter and improve pretty much on a daily basis - but I can't recall any mention of black being normally present on a Harley's finnage - and the thin black elongated blobbys on the ventrals clearly CANNOT be normal.
For all I know, the more general blackening of the fins could be due to anything from mood to - in part - a response to chemical toxicity from the Quick Cure which, alternatively, may be saving their lives. ??? Any expert suggestions??? Please!!!???
In some ways, the concerns regarding potentially improper medication rival those creating the need.
For about the first ten days a small water change of 1 - 1 & 1/2 gallons was conducted daily, without, however, recalculating/topping-up meds added at different times throughout the day, with one larger change (did re-add 2 drops of the usual 7 of Quick-cure there - treat for 3 days, leave one, usually: off-treatment day but didn't want to chance a set-back having removed 6 gallons total, together with proportionate degree of built-up medication - after the due addition of Sulfathiazole, with the Pimafix a while later) of three gallons twice, with a break between after refilling, so as not to create too-drastic sudden change, and have just now altered to water-changing every three days when the Sulfathiazole's added; due to the lightly rooted and fairly dense planting, the bottom can only be properly cleaned in the one soilless area mostly covered by a fair-sized piece of slate, used as a feeding/pouring area, and while the Harleys are certainly quick feeders, once down, food has to be (somehow) located and removed as they evidently don't employ the '30 second still edible rule' for food hitting the ground. (Neither do I - I can totally empathize.
Once snails are in, and the pygmy cats I hope to be able to add at the end of the month, such concerns will dissipate as rapidly as will such stray foodstuff.)
The first few days, as the larger 3 Harleys were so thin, I supplied 4 small feeds daily, then 3 feeds a day for a week or so, and have just gone to two slightly larger: generally, crushed Nutrafin Betta flakes, frozen bloodworms (I have a Central Mud Minnow who eats nothing but these or starves himself, pouting, the rest being divided on a rotating basis among different tanks, but the Harley's have been getting them daily - if this is a bad thing for one of two feedings, somebody tell me please!!! they'll likely go on rotation with the others soon anyway, and I won't tell them who said so) Hikari Micro Wafers, and sometimes a messy, evil combination of daphnia and krill which can only be fed in tanks getting cleaned and having filters rinsed that day.
Haven't tried them yet on the weekly pea-feed, although the Bettas aren't the only ones to relish these...
Thought I'd wait for cleaning reinforcements as tiny bits of pea are virtually impossible to find among greenery until the mold spreads to the foliage.
One of the larger Harley's (not the one with the previous tail issues) has twice (assuming this is the same one - once, soon after arrival, and again some days later, and could be entirely invisible whenever I'm not watching, for all I know) gone pale to the point where his(?) black marking disappeared and his(?) innards were actually visible.
On the second occasion, his(?) colour returned the instant I fed, and haven't seen this for a while, but the odd time he does look pale and a bit blurry/almost coated, temporarily.
Respiration seems to be OK, never any flicking or obvious indication of parasites - and again I'm wondering if this could potentially be related to chemical toxicity...???
Any thoughts/experience/suggestions?
I've lowered the heat from 80F to 78F despite the sickness issue, in case this is too stressful/oxygen-depleting - different sites give different info as to preferred temps for Harleys, although one said they breed at 80F. (Mine bred - and sometimes apparently just went through the motions - both at 80F and at 78F, evidently to provide party snacks...)
At what temps do the experienced here find their Harlequins to be happiest and healthiest?
How stressful are higher but normally moderate temps of 80F or of the 84-86F often used short-term in ich treatments?
Some sites give an impression of potential stress even at 80F - what do your Harleys think about that?
JUST WENT TO CHECK ON THE HARLEY'S - ONE OF THE SMALLER ONES NOW APPEARS TO BE PALE AND CONFUSED, not sure if she (I think a she?) actually flicked or just ran into a plant, as she keeps swimming in the area in front of the filter (mid-tank, hard to avoid, though they don't try or seem to be bothered; otherwise I'd rig a baffle/change filters rather than wait for plants to bush out) and gets blown a bit.
Her little mouth keeps opening and closing, although she's not attempting to surface to gulp air or anything drastic and I fear (
Murphy!!!) I've jinxed things by just now thinking various nasty parasite/diseases didn't seem likely...???They had a water change last night and I was just going to change over to every three days to allow the sulfathiazole to work fully, since we now seem to have the feeding thing pretty much down to a 'no morsel shall fall' science, but tempted to do one now, to reduce meds in case??? Or to produce more resistant black danglies...?
What with all the worrying, I know darn well I'm paranoid.
Yes, I've been frequently getting up and turning around to check on them at night - they're right behind the head of my bed; yes, if I slept I'd probably think more clearly and panic less; yes, the nightmarish curse has come home to roost - I'm turning into my Mother.
Just checked again, and they're having another orgy: saw two different pairs periodically in the shrubbery doing the belly-rub-on-leaf-male-tail-curling-over/under-female (depending on whether on top or under the leaves) thing.
Pretty sure one was the pale one, as far as I could tell - between the leaves and the male and all the giggling going on between the pairs, hard to identify individuals, but she did swim toward the front from that direction, still pale.
According to info on all sites seen so far, they likely wouldn't be breeding in bad/toxic water conditions???
Could some simply become pale from too much partying in the bushes?
What the heck is with the black on their fins, which (if not merely some colouration issue appearing together with the yellow/red originally virtually absent) I'd assume was early fin-rot the meds should have cured, and especially with the solid-looking thick black on the ventral rays?
Sorry about the hysterics, but it's horrible that these poor fish have weird diseases I haven't even been able to identify, and that, while one problem's cleared, (knocks wood - knuckles thunk on head - dog barks and runs to door) another seems to be worsening, potentially due to meds I'm administering - and all the while they become otherwise more beautiful...
One mystery may be explained: I'd delayed the evening feed due to the party then going on, and just went in to do so.
Couldn't figure out what one of the little ones was carrying in its mouth until it spat it out, again grabbed and repositioned it: a tiny, slender but relatively long green 'twig' evidently from some cardamine Lyrata.
It appeared to be trying to eat it
I assumed that feeding would cause the little one to abandon the twig, doing so ASAP, giving about a half-dozen mini wafers at a time, several times, watching the wafers as well as those consuming them to make sure none were blown off course to fall and rot, uneaten, realizing later that only 5 Harleys were present up front, with one agitated small fish off to one side behaving rather as one would expect of a fish swallowing a relatively stiff and undigestible twig.
Would a fish actually swallow something that could puncture its stomach?
Is life so bad in my tank that suicide is preferable?
Considering how often my cooking could pass as burnt offerings, if I retroactively dedicate these dinners as a sacrifice to Neptune, will he relent and cease this torture of my Harleys?
Actually, she's looking better now, although I can see I'll be up all night again, checking...
The Hikari wafers are stated to contain spirulina - do the Harlequins require a high level of greens?
I surely can't be underfeeding - the small ones, who hog the bulk of food, are rounded and I've actually been stuffing them silly,
although the number of feedings has admittedly halved - and I thought their diet as given should be fairly balanced...Would experienced Harlequin people recommend a higher level of vegetable feeding?
Who will unmask the mystery of Harlequin?
Anybody still awake out there?
Certainly not me...
to the forum Syphoniera and congratulations on winning the Largest Post Award for 2008. 
I'm sure after some members process your questions you will get some good responses. Either that or you will have to wait to hear from Deep Thought.
and doesn't stay together long enough to heal???
