High Ammonia Levels And White Spot. Help!

[Gidge]

So my partner just got a new 50L tank a couple of weeks ago and made the mistake of putting fish in straight away. Needless to say the ammonia levels were severely high, but after several water changes and taking some gravel and old filter pads from one of my own established tanks, I managed to get the ammonia to near on zero. We went out and got 5 more fish (4 Rummynose and 1 red tail shark).

I knew the ammonia levels would raise but didn't think it would be this much. The ammonia raised to 8.0ppm. I did an immediate 50-60%ish water change and put new Zeolite filter pads into the filter and AmmoLock to detoxify the ammonia and reduced feeding to a minimum. (The filter is just a sponge filter that sits inside the tank. I pulled the sponge out before we set up the tank and put different filter media in there, carbon included.)

I did all of this yesterday, and over night whitespot has appeared on all 4 Rummynose. (When doing the water change I was sure to keep at a current temperature of 26 celcius.) So this morning I slowly raised the tank temp to 29, and put the appropriate amount of aquarium salt in. (In the past I have been succesful with using heat and salt with my infected tanks)I was sure to remove the new zeolite filter pads as im aware that adding salt to the water can encourage the zeo pads to dump whatever ammonia they have absorbed back into the tank.


Current water parameters are as follows;

The water is currently crystal clear, no cloudyness what so ever.
Ammonia: 4.0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: barely 5.0 ppm
pH: 7.4. (I am currently adding acid buffer daily to lower the pH to a more acidic level.)
temp: Have raised to 29 celcius due to white spot but usually at 26.

In the tank at the moment we have 2 German Blue Rams, 1 Gold Gourami, 8 neon tetras, 4 Rummynose and 1 red tail shark.

At this point only the 4 Rummmynose are showing signs of white spot. None of the fish are showing signs of ammonia poisening apart from the red tail shark who is swimming with clamped fins and occasionally rubbing his sides on ornaments.

I just need to know if I am doing anything wrong or is there something else that I can do? The ammonia is really worrying me at the moment, not so much the white spot as I know how to treat it.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[KittyKat]

Do 95% water changes every day with temperature matched and salinity matched water, then re-dose the whitespot medication (if you start using one) after each water change as ammonia above 0.25 ppm will harm fish permanently. You should also stop feeding the fish until at least the whitespot is gone (which will be after all the spots are gone + 1 whole treatment cycle).

Blue rams and tetras do not tollerate salt very well, you would be better off using a medication. The high temperature only speeds up the life cycle of the parasite, not kills it.

After you are done, take most of the fish back to the LFS or if compatible, move then to your cycled aquarium.

Why did you add more fish if you *knew* that ammonia would rise? That is irresponsible, especially given that *any* ammonia will have a permanently damaging effect on some species.

Three-spot (gold) gouramis and red tail sharks are not really suitable for a 50 litre aquarium, there's no way around this, they have to go into a bigger tank. For three-spot gouramis, I recommend at least a 4 ft tank (although some people keep them in 3 ft tanks, but I feel they need more swimming space) and the shark must have at least a 4ft tank as they will become aggressive with age. Both species require more space to grow than a 50 litre tank has.

Personally, I would not keep blue rams in a 50 litre tank either. Maybe, I might consider them for one which has a 2*1 ft bottom area, but that's usually a 60 litre. In my larger tank, the pairs have each claimed a 30-60*60 cm territory.

Tetras are all schooling fish, so the rummynoses should be in a group of at least 6 and ideally closer to the 10-15+ region.

I also recommend that you stop messing with the pH, it will only make things worse. If acclimatised correctly, the fish *should* be fine in the higher pH (and more importantly in the harder water), while a pH crash will harm them. If you want to lower the pH in the long term, filter the water through peat or adding bogwood. Also, the buffer you are adding now is probably working against the salt, which means that neither is doing very much.

 

[lucasluke]

oh god - first of all do a water change ASAP any ammonia over 0.25 is harmful!!

 

[Gidge]

1. From what I've been told whenever you are adding new fish to a tank the ammonia will rise slightly. So I thought this was pretty inevitable.

2. The gourami will be moved to a larger tank when he gets bigger along with the rams, but not in the same tank.

3. I was also told that lowering the pH makes the ammonia less toxic to the fish. And 7.4 is too alkaline for rams etc anyway?

4. He plans on getting more rummynose once this has all cleared up and at least the gourami has moved.

So just to clarify, do an immediate 95% water change, repeat daily and start using a white spot medication - re dosing after every water change. I have triple sulfur which I'm told is decent? Would zeopads be okay to use in the filter when I use a medication because I know the carbon needs to be removed.

Thanks for your help so far.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

1. From what I've been told whenever you are adding new fish to a tank the ammonia will rise slightly. So I thought this was pretty inevitable.

2. The gourami will be moved to a larger tank when he gets bigger along with the rams, but not in the same tank.

3. I was also told that lowering the pH makes the ammonia less toxic to the fish. And 7.4 is too alkaline for rams etc anyway?

4. He plans on getting more rummynose once this has all cleared up and at least the gourami has moved.

So just to clarify, do an immediate 95% water change, repeat daily and start using a white spot medication - re dosing after every water change. I have triple sulfur which I'm told is decent? Would zeopads be okay to use in the filter when I use a medication because I know the carbon needs to be removed.

Thanks for your help so far.

I would definatly consider slowly raising the temp to 82F ( I dont know what this is in celcius) and adding marine salt( freshwaterkind) to the tank

 

[KittyKat]

IMPORTANT: I forgot to mention earlier, you probably want to check how well sharks tolerate medication, they *may* require half-doses.

1. From what I've been told whenever you are adding new fish to a tank the ammonia will rise slightly. So I thought this was pretty inevitable.

Not true: whether ammonia will rise or not depends on the volume of the aquarium, whether the filter is fully cycled, the size of the fish and how much you feed. For example, adding 2-3 small fish to a fully cycled 50 litre aquarium and increasing feeding over a period of one week will not cause an ammonia spike. On the other hand, adding 5 medium sized fish to a 50 litre tank with an immature filter will definitely cause an ammonia spike.

Basically, you should never go into buying new fish expecting them to come to harm because this does not have to be the case.

2. The gourami will be moved to a larger tank when he gets bigger along with the rams, but not in the same tank.

At least the gourami and shark will need more space to be able to grow properly.

3. I was also told that lowering the pH makes the ammonia less toxic to the fish. And 7.4 is too alkaline for rams etc anyway?

At pHs under 7.0, more of the ammonia will be ammonium (which is less toxic to fish), but at pHs over 7.0, most of the ammonia will be as ammonia. Again, it is not quite that simple because at the pHs where there is more ammonium, the filter bacteria do not work anywhere near as well, while at higher pHs, they work better. Still, adjusting pH is dangerous most of the time and is most definitely NOT a substitute for a cycled filter.
If you want to make the ammonia less toxic, do large water changes (90-95%) with warm, dechlorinated water, making sure that ammonia and nitrite never come close to 0.25 ppm, let alone go over. Use a dechlorinator which "deals" with ammonia (i.e. temporarily converts it to ammonium), but keep in mind that this is only a temporary solution which should keep the ammonia less toxic between water changes.

4. He plans on getting more rummynose once this has all cleared up and at least the gourami has moved.

The tank is still on the small side for rummynoses and how did he expect them to do while you wait to have somewhere else to move the gourami to?

So just to clarify, do an immediate 95% water change, repeat daily and start using a white spot medication - re dosing after every water change. I have triple sulfur which I'm told is decent? Would zeopads be okay to use in the filter when I use a medication because I know the carbon needs to be removed.

…and after you finish the whitespot treatment, do water changes as many times as you need to, to keep ammonia and nitrite as close to 0 ppm as possible. I don't know anything about "triple sulfer", but whitespot medication is based on malachite green. It's probably best to remove the zeolite because it could be slowing down the cycling process anyway, although I am not sure how it would affect medication.

I would definatly consider slowly raising the temp to 82F ( I dont know what this is in celcius) and adding marine salt( freshwaterkind) to the tank

29 C is 84 F. For someone who is posting temperature in C, it would be more useful if you give the recommendation in C (Google will do the conversion, for example) I usually use the search bar in Firefox as that gives me the conversion immediately, without having to press return. For example, something like "84f in c" for temperature, "** gal in litres" for US gallons to litres, "** litres in imperial gal" for litres to imperial gallons, etc

How can marine salt be freshwater? Anyway, aquarium salt, not marine salt, would be much better, but salt is not a good option anyway because of the specific species the other person has.

 

[Gidge]

Wow thank you so much for all you're help.

The gourami will be moved to a 4ft over the weekend/early next week.
Do you know if red tail sharks would be compatible with large cichlids and clown loaches? I have 2 blue/green texas, 4 Johanni, 1 frontosa, and 3 largish clown loaches. (I've been told that adding a frontosa to this mix isn't the best idea, but he has been in there for over 6 years and does extremely well) It is a 200L tank.

As for the Rummynose, I had 8 in my 95L tank and somehow lost 4 over time. I've had the remaining 4 for a long time now and they seem to be just fine.

Also, in regards to filter media, what would you recommend to be the best to use whilst undergoing white spot treatment. At the moment there is carbon pads and 'AquaOne Micropad".

I've had my 95L and 200L tanks for years and I've never had these types of problems. Hence why I'm a bit clueless atm. I've done alot of research but there is just so much contradicting information, so thanks again for your help and patience.

 

[KittyKat]

The gourami will be moved to a 4ft over the weekend/early next week.

Wait until all the whitespot is gone + one treatment because you don't want to spread it to other tanks!

Do you know if red tail sharks would be compatible with large cichlids and clown loaches? I have 2 blue/green texas, 4 Johanni, 1 frontosa, and 3 largish clown loaches. (I've been told that adding a frontosa to this mix isn't the best idea, but he has been in there for over 6 years and does extremely well) It is a 200L tank.

It might be… it depends on the layout of the set-up. It would, without question, be an improvement on the 50 litre if it works.
(Frontosa and johanni are both hardwater fish. Clown loaches are schooling. Frontosa, clown loaches and texas cichlids all grow huge: I can't imagine them in a 4ft tank very well, especially as, given the age, your frontosa must be in the 12-15 inch range already! (Measuring nose to base of tail, of course.))

Also, in regards to filter media, what would you recommend to be the best to use whilst undergoing white spot treatment. At the moment there is carbon pads and 'AquaOne Micropad".

Carbon is normally used up in a matter of hours to a few days, so you may as well treat it like a normal sponge. The micropad is just fine filter wool, which is also fine (just make sure it doesn't get clogged). Unless the carbon pad is new, both should be fine If the carbon pad is new, toss it out (it's infected with whitespot and disinfecting sponges is too much bother) and replace it with a standard sponge from one of your other tanks.

I've had my 95L and 200L tanks for years and I've never had these types of problems. Hence why I'm a bit clueless atm. I've done alot of research but there is just so much contradicting information, so thanks again for your help and patience.

It's a lot more difficult to harm fish in larger tanks and, very often, the results of ammonia exposure manifest as a weaker immune system and shorter lifespan, which, as you can imagine, are not exactly visible.

 

[Gidge]

It might be… it depends on the layout of the set-up. It would, without question, be an improvement on the 50 litre if it works.
(Frontosa and johanni are both hardwater fish. Clown loaches are schooling. Frontosa, clown loaches and texas cichlids all grow huge: I can't imagine them in a 4ft tank very well, especially as, given the age, your frontosa must be in the 12-15 inch range already! (Measuring nose to base of tail, of course.))

My cichlid setup has a lot of hidey holes with a mix of limestone, coral, driftwood and fake plants. As for my Frontosa he definitly isnt 15inches! He's only around 7/8 and I thought that was big! He's not much of a swimmer, even when I first got him all thbose years ago, he just likes to hang out in his shell.

Carbon is normally used up in a matter of hours to a few days, so you may as well treat it like a normal sponge. The micropad is just fine filter wool, which is also fine (just make sure it doesn't get clogged). Unless the carbon pad is new, both should be fine If the carbon pad is new, toss it out (it's infected with whitespot and disinfecting sponges is too much bother) and replace it with a standard sponge from one of your other tanks.

Okay, I will throw out the Carbon pads and in the meantime keep the micropads in the filter.

Thanks again for all your help. I'll let you know how it goes and if I have any more trouble. Fingers crossed!

 

[KittyKat]

My cichlid setup has a lot of hidey holes with a mix of limestone, coral, driftwood and fake plants. As for my Frontosa he definitly isnt 15inches! He's only around 7/8 and I thought that was big! He's not much of a swimmer, even when I first got him all thbose years ago, he just likes to hang out in his shell.

No offence, but that's probably because the tank is way too small for it. I think I should mention that clown loaches also grow to 16 inches (although very slowly) and texas cichlids to 12 inches. Both of these species also need the space to grow that large.
I can definitely vouch from personal experience that clown loaches and frontosa do achieve those sizes without any difficulty if kept in a good environment.

Carbon is normally used up in a matter of hours to a few days, so you may as well treat it like a normal sponge. The micropad is just fine filter wool, which is also fine (just make sure it doesn't get clogged). Unless the carbon pad is new, both should be fine If the carbon pad is new, toss it out (it's infected with whitespot and disinfecting sponges is too much bother) and replace it with a standard sponge from one of your other tanks.

Okay, I will throw out the Carbon pads and in the meantime keep the micropads in the filter.

If you throw out the carbon pads, it is very important that you replace them with some other cycled media or the ammonia problem will only get worse.

 

[Gidge]

Hey hey, just thought I would provide a bit of an update. After a few days of 95% water changes each day, the ammonia level is now between 0.25 and 0.50ppm. Which is such an improvement.

Also, the white spot has nearly cleared up, i have been repeating treatements after every water change as advised. There are only a couple of spots left on one of the Rummynose and no other fish seem to have caught it. (Thank god!) I have been keeping the water at a constant 29 celcius and very slightly decreasing the salt with each water change, even though the rams seem to have not been bothered by the salt.

Im aiming to have the ammonia brought down to near on zero in the next day or two, and hope for the white spot to be almost gone. Will continue treatement after all the spots have disappeared.

 

[KittyKat]

Definitely an improvement, try to keep that ammonia as low as possible. Are you seeing any nitrite?

 

[nanoMama86]

The huge water changes are having the side effect of helping to treat the ick as well as pulling your ammonia down. I really recommend getting some sort of ceramic bio ball or filter rings to go in your filter because it seems to help speed up bacterial colony growth and promotes a good strong, resistant to adverse conditions, bacterial colony.

Also, I echo the others on the frontosa and clowns needing a bigger tank. I have 4 clowns that are 6 months old now that were 2 inches long when I bought them and I put them in my 5 footer and all are now pushing 6 inches to 8 inches.


Good Luck Chappo!

 

[Gidge]

Definitely an improvement, try to keep that ammonia as low as possible. Are you seeing any nitrite?

Nitrites are at 0

This morning the rummynose appear to have no white spot on them at all and looking extremely happy. So hopefully the treatement will catch them in there free state!

 

[Gidge]

Have just performed another 90% water change, decreased the salt again very slightly, and added another white spot treatement. Fingers crossed!