Help..

[-germ-]

Cheers for the vote of confidence Tessla
I will be looking into the trading rules for LFS's and if the store in question is contravening them maybe a visit from whichever higher-power is concerned will help them to buck their ideas up and help improve the quality of life for the fish they sell, profit from and therefore (as far as i'm concerned) should take better responsibility for.
Ammonia is not yet present and hasn't been since we started,
We do have some nitrites though, it ranges from 0.3 or a tiny bit higher to 0.1 an hour or so after water changes could this be a sign of trouble?
Also....
The fish seem absurdly happy especially the gouramis, every one is happy to shoal together, is this the calm before the storm as they get to know each other and establish a hierachy?
There has been a tiny bit of pecking between my angels, but the recipient always gives back what they get and everyone calms down quickly, as yet there has been no lip to lip wrestling between the angels which i have been (correctly?) informed may spell trouble?
And.....
While my silver (female honey) gourami are a bit shy, the 2 manic dwarves have taken up a sideline in dancing (rather than racing around like 2 fishy hells angels), they will form a lip-to-tail ring with each other and spiral like that for a short period of time, can anyone tell me what this behavior means? Is it a sign of agression to come or even worse (considering the current situation) a build up to mating?
Any replies appreciated!!
Thanks again for any advice....
The Germ
Edit: An additional question: would you reccomend that we seperate the gourami and angels?
Or what is the minimum size tank for all 8 fish, if it can be done?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Hi Germ, your tank will currently be cycling with fish, have a read of this topic which should explain it all to you and tell you what you need to do.

I would always prefer people to do a fishless cycle but it's not always possible, however there are some fish that will be able to handle it and some that won't. Your angels are highly unlikely to survive in a cycling tank, I can understand that you don't want to return them to the lfs you bought them from, perhaps another shop in the area will take them? or you could offer them on the buy/sell/swap section of this forum to members in your area. perhaps someone can just take them from you while you fishless cycle your tank and you can have them back when teh tank is ready (angels really need a tank at least 6 months old)

the 55g should be big enough for the gourami's and angels, however even getting it at the end of the month won't make it mature enough.

I really do understand where your coming from and I don't want you to think I'm being harsh with you, but in all honesty your not saving the angels at all by keeping them. Please try and find them a better home asap even if it's only temporary until you can care for them properly.

 

[bobbicus]

hi

agree with above about taking angels back if you can - they need immaculate water - and during a cycle is a NO NO (sorry)....................is it possible for you to swap them back at this shop for some danios or barbs as they are hardy fish to cycle with - but try to use fishless cycling (hard to get head round at first)

i WOULD tho go back to where u were mis-sold these fish and tell them exactly - THEY KNOW DIDLEY-SCRAT!!! - some argue that if you are going to buy fish regular from 1 store and they appear very healthy (apart from putting them through a cycle) then you could ask for some filter media or gravel to help "kick-start" the nitrogen cycle

good luck
rob

 

[-germ-]

I appreciate everybodies input but....
While i am trying to convince my girlfriend to allow me to find a new home for two of the angels, there is no chance that i'll be removing all four, this seems extremely self-centered but our original angel, "Blondie", is the reason we removed the shark, bought a new tank, bought the gourami and then the 3 other angels.
I am determined she will survive the cycling period, she survived our black shark for a week in (due to my lack of knowledge) a horribly small, un-cycled tank.
I can appreciate this may be contradictory to my earlier anger at our FPS, and a tad materialistic, but we've spent, excluding the tanks, at least £150 (in 1 week) on products, food and more fish aimed at improving (mainly) her quality of life and fishy-happiness.
The gourami are fine (although i've been told they may be considering breeding ) and one of the 3 other Angels is showing all the traits that Blondie has shown herself. Euthanasia as i have been recommended is an absolute no-no. A chance of survival Vs a guaranteed death is just not a question i'd even give time to. I'd love to know if i traded her with someone until my cycle was complete, that she'd be perfectly happy and safe, or that if i took her to my FPS she'd go to a better and more suitable home but there is just NO way of knowing. At least if i hold on to her no one can suggest i am shirking my responsibilty or taking the easy way out.....
And i know the lengths i'm willing to go to, to ensure her survival.
Wherever she is; my tank, the FPS, another fish owner: If she dies in the next month or so, then i deem it to be my fault.....
Anyway, sorry for that little rant....
I may be stubborn and a bit defensive but that in no way means i do not appreciate the advice i am given!!

So please don't interpret this as "your advice is rubbish and i won't listen anyway," i need all the help i can get, i've thought about the moral side many times now and i see no other reponsible course of action.......

 

[vinylman]

You may be determined the fish will survive but, unfortunately, the only way you can improve it's chances is to rehome it in a fully cycled and (preferably) matured tank. Whatever you may think of your local supplier, their tanks WILL be fully cycled. Please spare a thought for the continued suffering of your fish.

 

[-germ-]

I agree and although i'm drawing a fair amount of flak for my stance;
If i do return them (the FPS seems to have a high fish turn-around)
How do i know they won't just sell them to another idiot who doesn't have the money (not that i do but i have a credit-card) and isn't willing to put his/her best efforts into caring for them....
I know i'm only dealing in conjecture and i have no way of knowing if that would happen, and i'm sure theres probably a sub-concious desire to make excuses to keep the fish........
I hate this situation and i honestly wish i'd never got involved with the fish in the first place, for christs sake i went looking for a cactus, now i'm stuck in a moral quandry that has lives (however small and fishy ) that rely on it and my actions...
I am trying to do the right thing,
But i am in this situation, i'll break it down to see if anyone can honestly point out the loophole in my logic............
1) The FPS is NOT an option, if they were willing to sell me the fish then they will just as happily sell them to an unsuitable owner, who's actions and levels of reponsibility i have no control over. Such a situation is by no means guaranteed, but then neither is the non-event i am concerned with.
2) My first unsuitabley tiny tank is being tested tonight, it was tested 2 days ago and the toxins were trace, if it is cycling it can be used for additional media, or in the event of a toxic spike as a very temporary emergency home.
3) I am buying a new larger tank ASAP, the odd shape of my current tank means there is enough height (22 and a half inches) for my infant angels to feel at least slightly comfortable, although i obviously wouldn't put them through another cycle.

How can anyone suggest the FPS may be a more suitable home, actually, IT IS, but then who can guarantee that the fish won't be re-sold in pursuit of the tainted profits they obviously crave....

Sorry my intended articulate arguments went to pot at the beginning of this particular post.......
I should not concern myself with chemistry that is my girlfriends niche.
If i honestly thought it would be safer to take the fish back; I WOULD.
This position is revolting, but i am trying to make the best decision by myself and my fish.......


and relax.......

 

[-germ-]

AND:

I have a book that lists the symptoms and behavioural issues of ill/unhappy fish....

Their gills are perfect, there is no yawning, shimmying, hanging around at the top of the tank.
Their eyes are clear, bright and aware. Their appetites healthy. I can see no behaviour as yet that implies any toxicity issues.....
Is there something else i should be looking for?
The book seems reasonably comprehensive.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

the problem with ammonia and nitrite poisoning is that it may not show any symptoms or problems now, however it can casue long term permanenet damage to the fish's respiratory system causing them problems later in life. There's various times in the fish's life when there will be less oxygen in the water than normal (2 regular examples are when you medicate the tank or in high summer temps) and at these times your fish who've gone through cycling will probably struggle. So if your fish do live through the cycle, you may well find they die in the summer when the temp rises.

yes there is no guarantee the fish will go to a better home, but there's a chance they will go to a better home, by your own argument surley a chance at life is better than no chance?

Or how about finding another lfs in your area and handing them in there, if you look in the tropical chit chat section there's a pinned topic with fish store reviews, try and find a recommended store in your area that you can return them to. Or advertise in the buy/sell/swap section of this forum and see if any members are local and can take them for you.

 

[-germ-]

Cheers for the advice, the fish are under constant scrutiny, this weekend i attempted to give 2 angels to a different FPS but they had no space for quarantine and after checking out the FPS i originally used i'll stick to my guns and refuse to return any fish there.
Yet more dead angels in one tank, others kept in tanks with silver sharks, one lying on it's side, though alive, on the bottom of tank, as far as i know an extreme character trait shown by cichlids when terrified, while the others were grouped at the top, un-moving, again as far as im aware another sign of severe and potentially lethal stress. There is no question where the angels are happiest and if they do die (which i, in my selfish and narcissistic assumptions, am absolutely convinced they will not....) i'd rather they died happy, as they most obviously are rather than panic-striken and blatantly unhappy. Even Oscar the lunatic shark i returned seems more lethargic (excuse my anthromorphism) and generally depressed.
Question:
If i was to purchase my new tank for re-homing my fish what would anyone recommend as a gourami/angel compatible algea eater and also if i was to plant it where do i buy and what should i use underneath my pebbled substrate? There is no aquarium soil, if it exists, at either FPS.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

gourami/angel compatible algae eater depends on the size of the tank, bristlenose plecs would probably be a good option given enough room, they stay small at around 4-6" so only need a tank 20-30ish gallons minimum. If you've more room than that then there's some lovely fancy plecs that are algae eaters.

check our www.aquaessentials.co.uk for all things plant related, excellent website reasonable prices, super quick delivery and friendly helpful customer service. I don't know any plant nuts in the UK who don't use it!

 

[-germ-]

Wiggles
If i provided some pictures of the fish would you or anyone you know be able to sex them for me?
If so, what shots should i provide?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

angels you can't sex until they start breeding, gourami's i believe you can sex but i don't know how to myself. your best bet is just to google search for sites with info on sexing them. then you can compare to your fish

 

[-germ-]

Done my best, i think it may be 3 females and 1 male which would be extremely lucky........
I noticed your post (after my helpful comment on xuxu's thread, euthanasia = ), could you elaborate on the seperating territories theme when you've got time..........
Is it not hard to acheive a balance with keeping the tank naturalistic or is the territory issue of greater concern to the fishies wellbeing?
If i have say a heavily rocky area on one side with a flora side on the other will this not prevent the fish from getting the best of both worlds or in your opinion would two backing sheets provide enough of a difference? (was that too specific, you get the gist)
At night 3 angels sleep together with 2 gourami while one of the angels stays on the other side of the tank but my other two gourami are always rushing around and never in the same place, i've tried to catch them out but they're always somewhere else. Does this suggest to you they are struggling to establish their own territory?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

with territorial fish you should just have different areas of interest. like you said maybe rocks at one end flora at another.

to give an example i had a semi aggressive community tank once with a few gourami's, apisto's that sort of thing. it was a shallow long tank which worked perfectly as I had lots of floor space to work with. at the filter end I had it very very densley planted with a few rocks in then next to that a really rocky are with just a few smaller plants in then another clump of tall stem plants, then 2 nice bits of wood leant up against each other to form a cave, then another densley planted area at the other end. with all the aggressive fish in there i never once saw a single bit of aggression. It wasn't the most beautifully aquascaped tank but it didn't look awful! But my aim in that tank was not aquascaping it was to provide a good happy home for all the fish which it did. This is one of the reasons why if you look at heavily planted and aquascaped tanks you'll see very few species of fish, it's easier to make it a good home for 1/2 types of fish than it is to provide homes for many different species.

 

[-germ-]

Sorry....
Another question
I now have algae building up rapidly, should i leave this for the time being to benefit the toxicity levels in the water, removing nitrites and ammonia. I am planning on only allowing it to build on the rear panel of my tank but should i leave it for now and if it does build up heavily could this pose any problems to my fish, especially when i clean it off in the future?
Also will the algae hinder the progress of my beneficial bacteria by making its job easier and therefore it not having to work so hard or build up as rapidly as possible?
Ta.