Help With Plant Substrate Suitable For Cory

KiwiGal77

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Hi all,

First post here, all the way from New Zealand 
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I am thinking of swapping out my current sand substrate for Caribsea Eco-Complete to help out my plants after reading many good reviews. Even with root tabs and liquid fertiliser they just aren't developing well in the sand and their root systems seem weak and shunted, apparently this can happen as some find sand too compact as well as the obvious lack of nutrients?

My main problem is that I have Cory, and this substrate on its own isn't really suitable for them. So I was thinking of topping it with an inch layer of JBL Manado - with it being round and light the Cory should happily be able to sift through it without damage, and it keeps the red colour I am wanting. In theory as it's light it *should* also stay on top of the Eco-Complete rather than mix or sink to the bottom, I think??

Thoughts? Is there a better option I haven't considered?


Thanks! 
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Sand is best for Cories as it allows them to sift it through their gills.
 
What light do you have as most plants need a 6500-9000K light to grow, as i use a 6500 UltraSun light, my plants are doing great. As for my Cories they love the Sand i used and havent seen any issues that may of happened since swapping to the sand. 
 
As for cories what type do you have, Pandas, Albinos, Julie Cories? as these are prefer to be in a group but have different water requirements that will be the same in some aspects but not in all of them, my cories( Albino Corydoras Catfish ) are in a Ph of 7.8- 8.0 and are doing just fine, just as long as i dont stir up the water to much they dont get to stressed out 
 
Quick answer...forget the Eco-Complete.  It is too rough for corys, and any sand-like material placed on top will sift down naturally, or with the corys rooting in it.  Plus, there is in my view no benefit to plants from E-C or the very similar Flourite.
 
I had Flourite in a 70g tank for two years and I can say that the plant growth showed no benefits over the same plant species in my fine gravel and sand substrate tanks.  And these two products are both too rough for substrate fish; my corys had to be removed, with considerable mouth damage, but fortunately they recovered nicely over play sand.
 
I found that I needed to use substrate fertilizers with these so-called enriched substrates, the same as I do in my gravel and sand tanks.  And liquid fertilizers as well.  I honestly saw absolutely no benefit, and consider also the cost was $180 compared to $14 for play sand with which I replaced it.
 
To your plants and their roots, this may be a nutrient deficiency.  Liquid fertilizers are easy to add.  We might be able to sort this out with more data on your set-up (lighting, fertilizers if any, plant species).
 
Byron.
 
Byron said:
Quick answer...forget the Eco-Complete.  It is too rough for corys, and any sand-like material placed on top will sift down naturally, or with the corys rooting in it.  Plus, there is in my view no benefit to plants from E-C or the very similar Flourite.
 
I had Flourite in a 70g tank for two years and I can say that the plant growth showed no benefits over the same plant species in my fine gravel and sand substrate tanks.  And these two products are both too rough for substrate fish; my corys had to be removed, with considerable mouth damage, but fortunately they recovered nicely over play sand.
 
I found that I needed to use substrate fertilizers with these so-called enriched substrates, the same as I do in my gravel and sand tanks.  And liquid fertilizers as well.  I honestly saw absolutely no benefit, and consider also the cost was $180 compared to $14 for play sand with which I replaced it.
 
To your plants and their roots, this may be a nutrient deficiency.  Liquid fertilizers are easy to add.  We might be able to sort this out with more data on your set-up (lighting, fertilizers if any, plant species).
 
Byron.
i would listen to bryan, as he helped me with my 20Gal tank plants that were dying. He has suggested a zooMed 6500 Flourescent light and now my plants are living( 2 Bulbs seem to have now outgrown my 20Gal tank as we speak )
 
Byron said:
Quick answer...forget the Eco-Complete.  It is too rough for corys, and any sand-like material placed on top will sift down naturally, or with the corys rooting in it.  Plus, there is in my view no benefit to plants from E-C or the very similar Flourite.
 
I had Flourite in a 70g tank for two years and I can say that the plant growth showed no benefits over the same plant species in my fine gravel and sand substrate tanks.  And these two products are both too rough for substrate fish; my corys had to be removed, with considerable mouth damage, but fortunately they recovered nicely over play sand.
 
I have kinda the same issue. I want cories, I have seachem now. I am not too worried about not getting the corries, but in the future this summer I plan on going garage saleing and buying lots of used tanks to set them up for aquascapes and planted tanks. What would you recommend for substrate for those tanks? I agree the flourite hasn't shown signs of growth in my tank. I would switch it out but I just can't restart my tank like that. I'll just use root tabs. What is a good substrate th ough ? Thanks
 
For a corie tank, use play sand, its cheap and it works wonders for cories. As for planted tanks, cories can be a great help as they eat the dead plant debri( shed plant matter ) as well as shrimpm snails, some plecos, and i know some crabs can eat that as well.
 
Planted tanks dont really need a special substrate, i mean some can use it for the color of the tank. But i use play sand in my 20Gal planted corie and shrimp tank. my plants are doing well due to the light i have been using. as i said earlier 6500K light works wonders, max i would use is a 9000k light.
 
Check out ZooMed ultrasun as thats what i use for my plants
 
I have kinda the same issue. I want cories, I have seachem now. I am not too worried about not getting the corries, but in the future this summer I plan on going garage saleing and buying lots of used tanks to set them up for aquascapes and planted tanks. What would you recommend for substrate for those tanks? I agree the flourite hasn't shown signs of growth in my tank. I would switch it out but I just can't restart my tank like that. I'll just use root tabs. What is a good substrate th ough ? Thanks
 
 
I would not put corys, or any substrate-interactive fish, over Flourite or Eco-Complete.  I decided on Flourite because in my hand, of the two it seemed less rough.  Bad mistake.  Within a few weeks, the corys had no barbels, torn skin around their mouth, and one panda even had lost a portion of its jaw.  I moved them out to a tank with play sand, and they recovered.  The panda with 2/3 of a mouth looks rather comical, but he has been able to eat and his barbels have grown a little bit, in 4 years since I rescued them from this tank.  I subsequently learned from a catfish importer and breeder that these two substrates should never be used with substrate-interactive fish.
 
As I indicated previously, I saw no benefit to either Flourite or Eco-Complete.  I have never tried any of the other enriched/plant substrates, like ADA, so I won't tar them with the same judgement.  But I will say that plants will grow in any substrate provided the grains are not too large.  I have had no problems in fine gravel or sand; I had pea gravel (this is the largest I would ever use) and it worked, though the plants do seem to be better with finer grains.  One can always use substrate tab fertilizers for large plants, and of course liquid fertilizers.  Allowing organics to accumulate in the substrate will result in nutrients, and more CO2 as the various bacteria break down the organics.  I rarely if ever dig into my substrates.
 
If you intend fish in the planted tanks, the above I believe is wisest.  If no fish are intended, and it is to be solely aquatic gardening-type planted tank, then experiment with soils and other substrates.  But I do not recommend these with fish, unless you have a fair degree of experience going into them.  Soil for example will cause high ammonia for up to six months.  Many soil-substrate sources will even say to not add fish for several months because of this and the related instability.  That doesn't mean it won't work, obviously it can; but you need to know what you are doing, and how to deal with the various issues that generally occur with soil.
 
A comment on sand and corys as it was mentioned in this thread.  If you are serious about providing the most natural substrate for corys, use sand, and play sand is about the best.  Corys can live fine with fine gravel, or smooth pea gravel, but they will not be able to function as nature intends, by sifting sand through their gills as they dig around the natural sand and mud substrates they are designed to live over.  Fish have needs, and I believe they should be provided as best as we are able if we want healthy fish.
 
Byron.
 
Thanks for your responses
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Will try and give a little more information about the current set-up in case there's another cause for the problems I'm having.
 
Tank is 150L, been set up for just over a year now. Has 2 x 30 watt T8 bulbs, one 7500K and one more pink one that I can't find it's K value but designed for plants. There are JBL Kugeln 7+13 balls in the substrate for all plants, and I dose with Flourish Comprehensive once a week after water change. No CO2. Plants are all low-medium light plants. 1200L p/h filter with surface agitation along the length of the tank.
 
Many of the plants seem to lose leaves and rot near the bottom, while still showing new growth at the top (albeit minimal). The roots are often looking a bit rotten when I pull them out, and there's not many to each plant. The issues all being at the bottom of the plant is what lead me to believe there may be something in the substrate causing the issues?
 
About 6 months ago I had to do a bacteria/fungal treatment of the entire tank with a methyl blue based medication. This seemed to be the start of the demise of my plants, and from then the ones that were there at the time died off and all new plants added seem to start dying within a month. I wonder if there's residue left in the current sand that the plants aren't liking? 

The sand is a light silica sand. Not sure if we can get suitable "play sand" here, have never heard of it. 
 
Do you guys get JBL Manado? It's like a small, rounded, very light & porous gravel made of 100% red scoria. Has no nutrients added, but is designed to hold nutrients as well as beneficial bacteria and be easy for plants to spread roots through. It's small and light enough that cory could easily move it around and sift through it without damaging their sensitive barbels, but not quite the same effect as sand. Happy safe medium for them? I have 6 Julii Cory. Have had them all for just over a year now, going well 
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Something else that comes to mind. How long do the lights last?? Mine must be about a year old now, so perhaps they are past their usefulness and I need new ones?
 
Tank is 150L, been set up for just over a year now. Has 2 x 30 watt T8 bulbs, one 7500K and one more pink one that I can't find it's K value but designed for plants. There are JBL Kugeln 7+13 balls in the substrate for all plants, and I dose with Flourish Comprehensive once a week after water change. No CO2. Plants are all low-medium light plants. 1200L p/h filter with surface agitation along the length of the tank.
 
 
No real issues here, but I would change the tubes.  In answer to your subsequent email, yes, tubes need changing regularly, and with T8, about 12 months is it.  I have gone about 15 months with good tubes (the Hagen Life-Glo) but this was pushing things.  As tubes burn the intensity of light produced weakens, and around 12 months it is probably getting close to be insufficient for photosynthesis.  Algae can appear as it is not so fussy.  So with a change in store, you might want to look at better spectrum.  Plants have been proven to respond best to light in the 5000K to 7000K range, or a CRI (colour rendering index) range of 80 to 100.  With one tube, the "Daylight" type with 6500K are about the best, but when you have two tubes you can mix for a nice effect.  I prefer one 6500K and one 5000K, or close.  The lower the Kelvin number the warmer (more red, less blue) and the higher the K the cooler (more blue, less red).  The so-called aquarium or plant tubes provide peaks in the red and blue wavelength which is essential for photosynthesis, but they are often less intense light and the purplish hue I find unpleasant.  The "Daylight" renders true colours.  If you can get the Hagen "Glo" series, or the ZooMed series, I can pin this down to suitable tubes as I have used all of these.
 
About 6 months ago I had to do a bacteria/fungal treatment of the entire tank with a methyl blue based medication. This seemed to be the start of the demise of my plants, and from then the ones that were there at the time died off and all new plants added seem to start dying within a month. I wonder if there's residue left in the current sand that the plants aren't liking?
 
 
Many treatments can be detrimental to plants, and any with methylene blue (or malachite green is another) can devastate plants.  Some may recover, many do not.  Some treatments will linger, being absorbed by wood, rock, filter media, substrate.  But here I would suggest that the initial effect of the treatment did the plants in, and this is not now an issue.  It is more likely the light/plants.
 
Many of the plants seem to lose leaves and rot near the bottom, while still showing new growth at the top (albeit minimal). The roots are often looking a bit rotten when I pull them out, and there's not many to each plant. The issues all being at the bottom of the plant is what lead me to believe there may be something in the substrate causing the issues?
 
 
Which specific plant species are we dealing with here?  If these are stem plants, it is common because of the light.  The roots is likely a nutrient issue.  We can explore this further.
 
The sand is a light silica sand. Not sure if we can get suitable "play sand" here, have never heard of it.
 
 
As long as the sand is not at all rough, the fish should be fine.  I like play sand because it is refined more than any other sand, since it is intended for children's play sand boxes, under swings and such.  But so long as the sand is not rough or sharp, it should be fine.  The darker the better, but here just avoid pure white.
 
Do you guys get JBL Manado? It's like a small, rounded, very light & porous gravel made of 100% red scoria. Has no nutrients added, but is designed to hold nutrients as well as beneficial bacteria and be easy for plants to spread roots through. It's small and light enough that cory could easily move it around and sift through it without damaging their sensitive barbels, but not quite the same effect as sand. Happy safe medium for them? I have 6 Julii Cory. Have had them all for just over a year now, going well
 
 
Concerning the corys, if this product is not at all rough or sharp, it should suffice if you already have it in their tank.  But I would not put them in a tank with this if at all possible.  As I think I mentioned in another post, sifting sand through their gills is a natural behaviour.  To watch corys upend themselves with half their head buried, and then see sand flying out their gills, is worth it.  For years I maintained many corys over fine gravel, a bit smaller than this material in the photos, but the change to sand was very noticeable in their response.  I don't recommend anything but sand for corys and other substrate-interactive fish.
 
As for the plants, this should work.  I've no idea how it might retain nutrients...that was one of the issues I had with Flourite.  These claims of manufacturers are sometimes difficult if not impossible to substantiate.  Plant roots in the substrate take up certain nutrients from the water in the substrate, and water being such a tremendous solvent, it will readily assimilate nutrients from the substrate.
 
 
 
As long as the sand is not at all rough, the fish should be fine.  I like play sand because it is refined more than any other sand, since it is intended for children's play sand boxes, under swings and such.  But so long as the sand is not rough or sharp, it should be fine.  The darker the better, but here just avoid pure white.
I have white silica pool filter sand in my 29 gal tank.   Looks nice and corys are ok with it.   Any pool supply store will have it in stock and it's reasonably priced and very clean.   It required very little rinsing before adding to tank.  
 
Any reason you say not to use pure white sand.
 
Fishmanic said:
 
 
 
As long as the sand is not at all rough, the fish should be fine.  I like play sand because it is refined more than any other sand, since it is intended for children's play sand boxes, under swings and such.  But so long as the sand is not rough or sharp, it should be fine.  The darker the better, but here just avoid pure white.
I have white silica pool filter sand in my 29 gal tank.   Looks nice and corys are ok with it.   Any pool supply store will have it in stock and it's reasonably priced and very clean.   It required very little rinsing before adding to tank.  
 
Any reason you say not to use pure white sand.
 
 
Yes, it can affect the fish, as no substrate in nature is white.  You will frequently read in profiles of fish species that a dark substrate is necessary.  Fish are dark coloured on their upper (dorsal) side, and usually white on the ventral; this allows them to be more invisible viewed from above (against the dark substrate) or below (against the lighter surface).  I did some unintentional experimenting a few years back; I had buff/tan coloured gravel (not white) in the tank with some characins (various tetras) and corys; I decided to try a black mix, and after I had changed the substrate, the fish were noticeable darker in colouration, and remained so.  Some fish will remain pale over a white substrate because it is not natural and causes stress.
 
The other thing I find with white sand is that it reflects the tank lighting very much, and this too bothers many fish.  Plus, I find it affects my viewing of an aquarium.  One can use lots of dark wood, and dry leaves to cover much of the substrate, to reduce this.
 
Byron.
 
Byron said:
 

 
 As long as the sand is not at all rough, the fish should be fine.  I like play sand because it is refined more than any other sand, since it is intended for children's play sand boxes, under swings and such.  But so long as the sand is not rough or sharp, it should be fine.  The darker the better, but here just avoid pure white.
I have white silica pool filter sand in my 29 gal tank.   Looks nice and corys are ok with it.   Any pool supply store will have it in stock and it's reasonably priced and very clean.   It required very little rinsing before adding to tank.  
 
Any reason you say not to use pure white sand.
 
 
Yes, it can affect the fish, as no substrate in nature is white.  You will frequently read in profiles of fish species that a dark substrate is necessary.  Fish are dark coloured on their upper (dorsal) side, and usually white on the ventral; this allows them to be more invisible viewed from above (against the dark substrate) or below (against the lighter surface).  I did some unintentional experimenting a few years back; I had buff/tan coloured gravel (not white) in the tank with some characins (various tetras) and corys; I decided to try a black mix, and after I had changed the substrate, the fish were noticeable darker in colouration, and remained so.  Some fish will remain pale over a white substrate because it is not natural and causes stress.
 
The other thing I find with white sand is that it reflects the tank lighting very much, and this too bothers many fish.  Plus, I find it affects my viewing of an aquarium.  One can use lots of dark wood, and dry leaves to cover much of the substrate, to reduce this.
 
Byron.

Agree for the fullest !
 
Thanks for the great replies everyone, really useful stuff in there :)

I will definitely replace my bulbs and look for light in that 5000-6500K range. I think we are quite limited in brands available here, so will just have to see what I can use in my light fitting.
 
I'm still deciding on the substrate. The sand is a beige colour, and I think I prefer the more red/brown colour of the JBL Manado & Eco-Complete to bring out the colour of the plants and fish, and as you say it's more natural. I can't find any sand that comes in that colour here though. So still considering the Manado after watching some videos of cories on it happily sifting through, head down/bum up :D
 
Interesting you mention you saw no real benefit to the Eco-Complete, as I've read many reviews of people who love it which is one reason I was determined to see if I could make it work for the cory with a top layer. Cost wise I think I'm looking at about the same for just Manado or Manado + Eco-Complete as a start up cost, but if the nutrients in the Eco-Complete lasted a year then I'll be saving $$ on not having to use root tabs which aren't cheap here.

Plants are mainly a variety of stem plants at the moment, dwarf sag, a few little crypts and will also be getting a sword. 
 
One thing I would mention when it comes to substrate colour, is that "non-colours" are less noticeable and thus actually show off plant and fish colours better.  Anything in the neutral range, being buff/tan, grey, or a mix (such as black/grey/white/tan/brown) will do this nicely.  As soon as you use any colour, it draws the eye to the substrate.
 
From my experience and those of planted tank folks that I have talked to or seen posts from, the Eco-Complete or Flourite do not release nutrients unless you add nutrients with tabs or liquid.  In my case, it was the same as plain sand or fine gravel.  Some will tell you soil is mandatory, and you can't grow plants in plain sand or gravel; everyone may have views, but that doesn't mean its right or wrong.
 
The choice is yours obviously, but you may be spending money unnecessarily, if that is a concern.  The plants mentioned will not see any benefit over a comprehensive liquid fertilizer, though the sword will benefit from a substrate tab once every 3 months.  But do consider your fish as their requirements (colours, texture) are of more importance that the aquarist's preferences.
 
Byhron.
 

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