Help with fishless cycling

[pednurkim]

Good. Do you have a bubbler going?

Warmer water holds less oxygen, which the BB (beneficial bacteria) need to thrive; a bubbler will create more surface agitation, which will help with gas exchange/oxygenation of the water column

Yes. I have a bubbler running all the time.

 

[Slaphppy7]

Yes. I have a bubbler running all the time.

Good. Be patient, check those levels daily, and post back here with your results

Be sure to follow the directions in the fishless cycling sticky as precisely as possible

Nothing good happens fast in this hobby, patience is key

 

[pednurkim]

Good. Be patient, check those levels daily, and post back here with your results

Be sure to follow the directions in the fishless cycling sticky as precisely as possible

Nothing good happens fast in this hobby, patience is key

Ok. I will. Thank you!

 

[pednurkim]

OK. So, before I posted on here, I dosed the aquarium to 2 ppm ammonia because it had been 8 days since I had dosed it. I know, different than the directions, but glad I did because it showed that after 24 hours the level was 1 ppm. The last time I dosed it, levels went to zero in less than 24 hours. It has now been about 36 hours and ammonia is between 0.25 and 0.50. Nitrites are bright purple as always. Nitrates are 40 ppm. How are nitrates so high when they were zero after the water changes I had done. With the ammonia I have put in shouldn't nitrates only be a little above 10 ppm? If I read it right, according to the directions I shouldn't have dosed ammonia again until nitrites were under 1 ppm. Tomorrow will be 6 weeks since I started and that has not happened except with the large water change I did. So, do I just let everything sit the way it is and do nothing more with ammonia until nitrites are under 1 ppm, and not worry about ammonia bacteria colony being decreased?

 

[Essjay]

Nitrate is the least accurate of our tests, and with liquid reagent testers if one of the bottles is not shaken very well the readings won't be accurate.
Nitrate testers work by converting nitrate into nitrite them measuring nitrite. Any nitrite already in the water will be added to the nitrite made from nitrate and give a reading which is higher than the true nitrate level. Nitrate should not really be measured until after nitrite drops to zero.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If you are adding ammonia daily, then you do not know how to do a fishless cycle, Stop doing that as it will keep you in an endless loop of bad numbers and no idea what is going on in the tank. Water changes are the enemy of cycling.

I can fishless cycle in 10-12 days by seeding a new tank or bio-farm. That may come from Dr. Tim's One and Only and/or filter media being rinsed out in the new tank. I usually cycle filters and not tanks.

The fishless cycling method on this site is foolproof when followed exactly as it lays things out. It is impossible to stall a cycle if you do that. Note that it tells one that it should only take about 6 ammonia additions to complete a fishless cycle.

Please note, the average fishless cycle should require a total of between 5 and 6 ammonia additions (Doses) as described below.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/

I would do a huge water change to reset the tank and then add 3 ppm oof ammonia and follow the article. it should go faster as you are not at the vert start, you have nacteria already. The key is after you add the 3 ppm to follow the directiosn. this means when your readings are in the ranges indicated, then you cam redose and not before. However, ignore the day stuff and work with the readings part of the guide. Since your ammonia goes to zero in 24 hours, that means is is .75 ppm or lower.

If at any time after the first ammonia addition (Dose #1) you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia (Dose #2). Add the same full amount as you did the first time. Now, begin to test the ammonia and nitrite levels every other day.

for you the days are not relevant as to how you should proceed, the key is your ppm readings. Use those guidelines to determine when to add ammonia again.

 

[pednurkim]

OK. So, before I posted on here, I dosed the aquarium to 2 ppm ammonia because it had been 8 days since I had dosed it. I know, different than the directions, but glad I did because it showed that after 24 hours the level was 1 ppm. The last time I dosed it, levels went to zero in less than 24 hours. It has now been about 36 hours and ammonia is between 0.25 and 0.50. Nitrites are bright purple as always. Nitrates are 40 ppm. How are nitrates so high when they were zero after the water changes I had done. With the ammonia I have put in shouldn't nitrates only be a little above 10 ppm? If I read it right, according to the directions I shouldn't have dosed ammonia again until nitrites were under 1 ppm. Tomorrow will be 6 weeks since I started and that has not happened except with the large water change I did. So, do I just let everything sit the way it is and do nothing more with ammonia until nitrites are under 1 ppm and not worry about ammonia bacteria colony being decreased?

Nitrate is the least accurate of our tests, and with liquid reagent testers if one of the bottles is not shaken very well the readings won't be accurate.
Nitrate testers work by converting nitrate into nitrite them measuring nitrite. Any nitrite already in the water will be added to the nitrite made from nitrate and give a reading which is higher than the true nitrate level. Nitrate should not really be measured until after nitrite drops to zero.

That makes sense why it would be higher then. Thank you!

 

[pednurkim]

If you are adding ammonia daily, then you do not know how to do a fishless cycle, Stop doing that as it will keep you in an endless loop of bad numbers and no idea what is going on in the tank. Water changes are the enemy of cycling.

I can fishless cycle in 10-12 days by seeding a new tank or bio-farm. That may come from Dr. Tim's One and Only and/or filter media being rinsed out in the new tank. I usually cycle filters and not tanks.

The fishless cycling method on this site is foolproof when followed exactly as it lays things out. It is impossible to stall a cycle if you do that. Note that it tells one that it should only take about 6 ammonia additions to complete a fishless cycle.

Please note, the average fishless cycle should require a total of between 5 and 6 ammonia additions (Doses) as described below.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/

I would do a huge water change to reset the tank and then add 3 ppm oof ammonia and follow the article. it should go faster as you are not at the vert start, you have nacteria already. The key is after you add the 3 ppm to follow the directiosn. this means when your readings are in the ranges indicated, then you cam redose and not before. However, ignore the day stuff and work with the readings part of the guide. Since your ammonia goes to zero in 24 hours, that means is is .75 ppm or lower.

If at any time after the first ammonia addition (Dose #1) you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia (Dose #2). Add the same full amount as you did the first time. Now, begin to test the ammonia and nitrite levels every other day.

for you the days are not relevant as to how you should proceed, the key is your ppm readings. Use those guidelines to determine when to add ammonia again.

I wasn't adding ammonia every day. I have only added 6 total doses. The only reason I added this last dose because it had been so long with no changes to nitrites. So I should just follow from dose 2 then, or do a large water change and start over at dose 1 since I only added 2 ppm ammonia instead of 3 for dose 2? Thank you for your help!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I misses te few in every few days- my bad. It is hard to know where you actually are in the cycle. More on this shortly.

The reason I use 3 ppm of ammonia for general fishless cycling is two-fold. Tanks with a higher pH have more ammonia as NH3. This is what the bacteria want. Som to be sure such tanks are safe for sure, 3 ppm helps. Then there is the fact that a bit more bacteria is better to have than a bit less at the end of a fishless cycle. However, if one is experienced it can be approriate to cycle sone tanks with as little as 1 ppm. But trying to teach new fish keeper how to determine if 1, 2 or 4 ppm is the ideal for their new tank would be difficult at best.

By choosing the 3 ppm number it does mean folks with lightly socked tanks planned will spend a few days more than they need to get their tank cycled properly. But that hurts nothing. On the other hand a person with a higher pH and plans to stock normally or heavily, that 3 ppm is all going to be needed. But there is only one article so I is universally geared to protect almost any tank and parameters.

The limit was set at 3 ppm and the dosing designed as it is to prevent any tank from winding it with so much nitrite it stalls the cycle. That is over 5 ppm on the nitrogen scale (used by science) and 16.4 ppm on the total ion scaled used by most hobby test kits. The ever popular API test kit for nitrite only goes to 5 ppm on the total ion scale. So when one gets a reading of 5, one has no idea if the actual nitrite level is 5 or maybe it is higher, even much higher.

Now as to what you should do is the big water change which will mostly reset things. When you have changed the water, retest for both ammonia and nitrite and record them. You then can add 3 ppm of ammonium chloride, I use the Fritz dry ammonium chloride but I am assuming you are using their Fishless Fuel which is the liquid. I have been using ammonium chloride for years and for my bio-farm I use the dry Fritz but for individual tanks I use Dr. Tim's Ammonium Chloride.

I see for the Fuel: "To bring aquarium to 2 ppm ammonia: Add 4 drops per One U.S. Gallon (3.78 L) or 1 tsp (5 ml) per 25 U.S. Gallons (94.6 L)" so you should increase that to 6 drops per gal. The 5 ml/25 gals translates to 1 ml/5 gals. so if you are using ml, you should increase the amount you add to 1.5 ml/5 gal.

I assume after you do the water change and testing you will have 0 ammonia and close to that for nitrite. However, if you do get an ammonia reading, you need to subtract the anount you get from 3 ppm and adjust the 1st ammonia dose accordingly.

There is one more thing to know. The ammonia detoxifiers that come with most dechlors turns the ammonia from the very toxic NH3 form into the much less toxic NH$ form. While the bacteria can still use this, they do so less efficiently. So this means it take a bit more time. However, ammonia detoxifiers either do not last much over 24 - 36 hours and any ammonia still there can convert partially back yo NH3 which is fine. So, since you will not need to change water for some time you will not need to add more dechlor and this should not be an issue.

You now need to be testing every 24 hours. When you do the first test after going to 3 ppm, the results will tell you where things stand. You just need to look at the fishless cycling article and see where the numbers fall. You are wanting to see:
"If at any time after the first ammonia addition (Dose #1) you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia (Dose #2)." You will add 3 ppm of ammonia here.

If you do see ammonia over .75 ppm, then wait until you test it under that number. As long as you have nitrite, over 2 ppm at that time, you can add (Dose #2).

But if after the water change at the next test, you see 0 ammonia, then you are waiting for rising nitrite before adding a snack dose. You should do this when you have tested ammonia 3 time at 0 and nitrite is going up. I has to be testing well over 2 ppm and you can add the snack.

Once you know where you are in the oricess, it should be clear what o do next and when. But if not, post and I usually check in a few times a day. Or shoot me a site PM and I should get an Email notification. I am retired and my PC is always on.

 

[pednurkim]

I misses te few in every few days- my bad. It is hard to know where you actually are in the cycle. More on this shortly.

The reason I use 3 ppm of ammonia for general fishless cycling is two-fold. Tanks with a higher pH have more ammonia as NH3. This is what the bacteria want. Som to be sure such tanks are safe for sure, 3 ppm helps. Then there is the fact that a bit more bacteria is better to have than a bit less at the end of a fishless cycle. However, if one is experienced it can be approriate to cycle sone tanks with as little as 1 ppm. But trying to teach new fish keeper how to determine if 1, 2 or 4 ppm is the ideal for their new tank would be difficult at best.

By choosing the 3 ppm number it does mean folks with lightly socked tanks planned will spend a few days more than they need to get their tank cycled properly. But that hurts nothing. On the other hand a person with a higher pH and plans to stock normally or heavily, that 3 ppm is all going to be needed. But there is only one article so I is universally geared to protect almost any tank and parameters.

The limit was set at 3 ppm and the dosing designed as it is to prevent any tank from winding it with so much nitrite it stalls the cycle. That is over 5 ppm on the nitrogen scale (used by science) and 16.4 ppm on the total ion scaled used by most hobby test kits. The ever popular API test kit for nitrite only goes to 5 ppm on the total ion scale. So when one gets a reading of 5, one has no idea if the actual nitrite level is 5 or maybe it is higher, even much higher.

Now as to what you should do is the big water change which will mostly reset things. When you have changed the water, retest for both ammonia and nitrite and record them. You then can add 3 ppm of ammonium chloride, I use the Fritz dry ammonium chloride but I am assuming you are using their Fishless Fuel which is the liquid. I have been using ammonium chloride for years and for my bio-farm I use the dry Fritz but for individual tanks I use Dr. Tim's Ammonium Chloride.

I see for the Fuel: "To bring aquarium to 2 ppm ammonia: Add 4 drops per One U.S. Gallon (3.78 L) or 1 tsp (5 ml) per 25 U.S. Gallons (94.6 L)" so you should increase that to 6 drops per gal. The 5 ml/25 gals translates to 1 ml/5 gals. so if you are using ml, you should increase the amount you add to 1.5 ml/5 gal.

I assume after you do the water change and testing you will have 0 ammonia and close to that for nitrite. However, if you do get an ammonia reading, you need to subtract the anount you get from 3 ppm and adjust the 1st ammonia dose accordingly.

There is one more thing to know. The ammonia detoxifiers that come with most dechlors turns the ammonia from the very toxic NH3 form into the much less toxic NH$ form. While the bacteria can still use this, they do so less efficiently. So this means it take a bit more time. However, ammonia detoxifiers either do not last much over 24 - 36 hours and any ammonia still there can convert partially back yo NH3 which is fine. So, since you will not need to change water for some time you will not need to add more dechlor and this should not be an issue.

You now need to be testing every 24 hours. When you do the first test after going to 3 ppm, the results will tell you where things stand. You just need to look at the fishless cycling article and see where the numbers fall. You are wanting to see:
"If at any time after the first ammonia addition (Dose #1) you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia (Dose #2)." You will add 3 ppm of ammonia here.

If you do see ammonia over .75 ppm, then wait until you test it under that number. As long as you have nitrite, over 2 ppm at that time, you can add (Dose #2).

But if after the water change at the next test, you see 0 ammonia, then you are waiting for rising nitrite before adding a snack dose. You should do this when you have tested ammonia 3 time at 0 and nitrite is going up. I has to be testing well over 2 ppm and you can add the snack.

Once you know where you are in the oricess, it should be clear what o do next and when. But if not, post and I usually check in a few times a day. Or shoot me a site PM and I should get an Email notification. I am retired and my PC is always on.

Thank you so much for your clarification and help! I really appreciate it! I'll let you know how it goes.