Help urgently needed

[Tippy]

I am in need of some help and advice ....

My tank seems to be running perfectly .... water parameters etc stable, tank looking fantastic but I am losing fish !

I have lost almost a fish a week over the last couple of weeks. The problem being that the fish who is obviously not well becomes extremely thin and will not eat. There are no outward signs other than the thinness. All other tank mates seem to be doing very well, except I have noticed them having the odd body flick on the gravel. I have watched them under a magnifying glass and there is no sign of ICH though.

I feed every other day and perhaops weekly or fortnighty I feed daphnia to make a change which they all seem to love.

Can anyone help or have any suggestions to check for ? I hate seeing my little chums dying.

 

[MAM]

what are you feeding them, how much, and what types of fish do you have? can you post your actual water parameters?

 

[PappaLove]

Do u have an agressive fish in the tank that is bullying the others? when u say the water is fine what are the readings?

 

[AquaNut]

Knowing what kind of fish you have would help a lot. Flashing (rubbing against rocks or other surfaces) means something is irritating your fish. Often, it is a sign of high ammonia, but you say your params are good (only readings of 0 are okay for nitrites and ammonia). Another thing that will make fish flash, as you noted, is a parasite. Ich is only one of many many parasites that affect our fish. An internal infection can also cause fish to waste away, but in conjunction with the flashing, I'm suspicious of parasites. Can you give us any more information?

 

[Cian McLiam]

To me it sounds like internal parasites. They will live in the gut of the fish and actually consume all the nutrients from the fishes food before it can reach the fish at all. Have you noticed any stringy poo? A horrible question I know, but its a great clue to the internal health of a fish. White, long stringy poo means parasites are eating all the good stuff, even the fibre that makes excretion 'normal' looking.
Flashing can be due, as the guys above have pointed out, to parasites, it could also have to do with contamination or PH swings, or simply chorine or chloramines in the tap water your using.
I would raise the temp up to 86F gradually, add a good broad spectrum anti-parasite treatment (waterlife make the excellent Octozin if you can find it), if you have no catfish, salt is a good anti-parasitic aid, the organisms lack the organs other highly developed creatures have to process it and die because of osmotic pressure drying them out. Before using salt tho, read the article in this Link.

Good luck,

Ken

 

[fishgeek]

salt wont have much effect on internal parasites , even if they were susceptible to high salinity the host(fish) is going to regulate it's internal enviroment to within very strict parameters
in effect the parasite(an extremely broad term) lives in a well regulated enviroment and does not get affected by high salt levels

worms - a type of internal parasite would cause stringy poo's (the mucous is due to irritation of the bowel lining, the cells there produce mucous in response, this can be physical/chemical etc
worms are well adapted to coping with acidic gastric secretions and digestive enzymes , a level of salt that wont kill all freshwater fish will not worry them

worms are one possible for intererna parasitism that would cause lethargy inappetance and slow wasting
their are many species of worm .check the vent of all fish red threads= camallanus
stop feeding daphnia if they are wild caught as copepods are the intermediae host of some nematode worms with complex life cycles

protozoan species (flagelatted baceria) may infest the gut similar signs really need a feacal to tell which parasite infests the gut all will have differing treatments

have seen the increased temperature proported often when bacterial problems are thought to be the cause , this is not good advice , generally bacterial will multiply faster at higher temperatures thereby overwhelming the fishes immune system

aim to aid the fish in curing itself
medication unless specifically indicated can be harmful both to the ill fish the healthy fish if treating a whole tank rather than aquarrantine tank, the biological filter etc etc

getting back to the question
2 signs
flicking - probably as other have already suggested some external irritant , water - make sure you do more frequent even daily water changes with aged/aerated 24hrs dechlorinated water
external parasites if no other signs visible dont just medicate fish will not die from flicking alone, keep observing behaviour and look for a cause

inappetance/wasting and death
again rightly suggested some internal parasite, though often in the early stages a good appetite will be seen the fish will lose weight and then as it becomes sick show less interest in food
worms often have a slow course of disease before inappetance and death
all parasites that affect the gut will cause some feacal changes and generally will show some signs(perhaps microscopically only) in a feacal sample, keep looking

unfortunately the therapies i use for most internal parasites are by prescription only , metronidazol, levamisol, enrofloxacin
perhaps you can source them by online pharmacy, your local vet or perhaps by some dog/cat wormer
panacur and mix with food , this will cover most nematode(roundworms) and protozoan gut disease, best if given by mouth so unlikley to be effecib=ve in the fish who aren't eating

if you would like dosage's and feed mix instructions see if you can source from the vet and let me know what fish you wish to treat

keep watching the fish
closely

sorry i am am so long winded
andrew

 

[Cian McLiam]

salt wont have much effect on internal parasites , even if they were susceptible to high salinity the host(fish) is going to regulate it's internal enviroment to within very strict parameters
in effect the parasite(an extremely broad term) lives in a well regulated enviroment and does not get affected by high salt levels

From the indicators described, I am suspecting external parasites also, perhaps in the gills or less visible parasites such as velvet. The salt will also help with the fishes own osmoregulation and/or nitrite poisoning as described above

have seen the increased temperature proported often when bacterial problems are thought to be the cause , this is not good advice , generally bacterial will multiply faster at higher temperatures thereby overwhelming the fishes immune system

No mention of suspected bacteria in my or the original post, bacterial infections usually shows up as a darkening of colour, sunken or expanded areas of the body, grey film on the eyes, fin and body rot etc. etc. If none of these are visible, we have to make a choice, it is unwise to treat for both bacterial and parasitical infestations unless covered by the same med, so in balance, I think parasites are the more likely cause. Hence the advice to raise the temp. In treating fish, if you want to avoid total chemical warfare on the fish, you need to make a diagnosis choice and stick to it. If its the wrong choice, better luck next time, if its the right choice and you then change treatments, this would be a double negative and probably lead to fish death.
I am sticking with the original assumption of parasites, depite the thinness of the fish.


Ken

 

[fishgeek]

To me it sounds like internal parasites

that was the first line of your previous post, i'll assume typo hey


bacteria are parasites

parasite is just a very non specific term
an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); the parasite obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host


although the not killing often does happen it is not the parasites aim , we never set out to wreck those house's we have parties in now do we!

i see that you were using the term to mean things other than virus and bacteria
like i guess leech's flukes etc

good advice sorry i got my wire's crossed ken

andrew

 

[Cian McLiam]

Hi fishgeek
Apologies for the confusion, I think calling parasites that are host specific to fish such as Ich, velvet, gill worms etc 'parasites' and the bacteria, um, bacteria helps to avoid confusion!!

Ken

 

[Tippy]

Thanks for all the replies - sorry for the several topic headings - a failure message kept coming up and then all three entries went on the system !!!

Water parameters ; (Ph) 7.6, (Kh) 18ºd, (GH) >14ºd, Nitrate 0, Nitrite 0

My tank is planted with live plants and bog wood, the substrate is gravel.

The fish I have left are as follows
1 balloon molly (2 have died)
3 platys (1 has died)
1 neon tetra (6 have died since starting my tank in June)
1 glowlight (given to me by lfs in error)
2 zebra danios (3 have died since June)
3 peppered corys (original fish from June)

A few snails too ….. some of which I am getting rid of as there are too many for my liking !

I feed with Aquarian Tropical fish flakes and only shop bought daphnia.
I am loathed to put salt in the tank because of the corys.

I looked again at the fish that are left and they all seem fine, I did lose a zebra danio last night which was all but skin and bone.

I have to say that the largest danio does seem to be a real bully and has far out grown the others size wise.

I hope this helps.

 

[Cian McLiam]

I would say the advice given still stands with the new info. fishgeek?

Ken

 

[fishgeek]

water seems very hard
any idea's why? what do you add to it? or are you unlucky enough to have liquid rock

i wouldn't put the salt in either
what are your tap water parameters

and give us a description of the poo or go see if your vet will supply panacur powder (dog wormer size) treats both protozoan and nematode probs which i think are probably 2 of the more likely internal parasites

andrew

 

[mistrymachine]

hi I have the same problem.My fish dont seem to be wasting awaybut are definately eating less.my ballon belly is pooping strings,and all of my fish are scratching.The rosy barb is twitching,darting and hiding.I suspected an internal parasite since there are no visible signs of other disease.So I treated them with pepso food.Things cleared up for a few days and then it started again.I was reccomended to treat again with pepso food,although it seems to me that they dont feel well while digesting it. Should I try the pepso again or switch to something else?Maybe parasite food would help Tippy?Considering it wont alter filter colony like other meds.My fish have been surviving for quite a while with these symptoms wich also leads to parasite.I have kept them going with only waterchanges.(scared of meds,due to overmedicating from LFS advice).any advice?