Help! Sick fish, contradicting advice...

[ChelleDWC]

ok, we only have a little dip tester, but here are what those levels are:

nitrite .25
hardness 25
alkalinity 180-200
nitrate around 20, though the non-dip test said around 7
ph around 8

I hate comparing those stupid color things to the chart

 

[Alien Anna]

Hi Chelle,

Ok, here's where we're at. It's a 20 gallon tank, with the following fish:
2 platies
6 African Dwarf frogs
5 ghost shrimp
4 apple snails
1 male, 2 female bettas
2 plecostomus
6 blood fin tetras

Also, 3 live plants

The plants will help if you can keep them alive - they absorb ammonia.

You need to put the shrimps and snails in your 2.5 gal tank. That will have to be cycled too, but at least you can keep them out of the way to do the ich treatment on the bigger tank.

You are over-stocked in that tank so if you are not planning to get a larger tank, I suggest you take some of those fish back to the LFS. A rough guide is one inch of fish (not including tails, adult size) per gallon of water. The plecos, if common plecos, are obvious fish to return and I think 6 frogs are a potential problem waiting to happen. An over-stocked tank is going to be a much bigger problem when it comes to ammonia and it may reduce the chances of any fish surviving if you have too many.

As for returning fish, if you are not confident to return them to your first LFS it is worth travelling to one that will take them. Do explain that you've had ich so that the LFS quarantine your fish/frogs.

Heavy aeration, water temp 80F, carbon filter.
We have a reverse-osmosis filter on the house, so all our tap water is chlorine-free and in the neutral ph range.

RO water can lack nutrients needed for plants and animals so you may need to add some electrolytes (however, I've never used RO water so you'd need to check with someone who does). When you use the ich treatment don't forget to take out the carbon from the filter.

ph has risen to 7.8, and now the ammonia and nitrite levels have started spiking again. Ammonia at 4, Nitrite at 10.

That's not good but to be expected until your tank is cycled.

We just did a 15-20% water change. We have those ammonia-locking tablets, but from what I read on your site, those aren't necessarily good?

You're in a bit of a bind at the moment but personally I'd treat the problem with plants and frequent water changes, rather than ammonia locking substances.

We also noticed there is some waste in some areas of the gravel - should we leave that for the beneficial bacteria? And should I stop feeding them and for how long?

You should try to vacuum up any obvious muck on the gravel as it might produce ammonia. Plecos make a load of mess particularly.

So here's where we're at now. I haven't done any sort of ich treatment since two days ago.

If any of your fish have ich still you need to start a new round of ich treatment. If none have the symptoms of ich or fungus you can leave it and hope the improved water quality will do the trick. I'm still waiting on one of our American friends to recommend a product.

Our little tank has been totally cleaned out to start fresh, which means it will have to totally re-cycle, so what do I do for a hospital tank if I need one?

You'll have to cycle the hospital tank as well, unfortunately.

I'm still not sure exactly which of these treatments to use or if I should go get another one. Can I start one of these treatments and then change it if someone mentions something better that I can find here in the states? Or is mixing medications like that more harmful than good?

It's better to stick to one treatment. What you need is a good general ich and fungus treatment that doesn't affect beneficial bacteria.

By the way, I sure wish I'd known about the fishless cycling before starting all of this!

Its a shame when people have to learn the hard way but you'll get there, I'm sure.

Oh, and no fish dead yet. I half expected to find them all gone this morning. The bettas and the pleco just look horrible. The male betta looked like he was coughing last night. The shrimp appear to have white spots on them now, too, but it's sort of hard to tell.

Bettas can look rather pathetic when they're ill. However, they can cope with cycling quite well if you're careful. The poor pleco is in a bad way but I never give up on a fish until the fish gives up on me. I don't think shrimp can get whitespot but they can get fungal infections. However, good clean water is probably the best treatment for them.

 

[reg2k2]

nox-ich may be ok
Rid-Ich+ another option (same active ingredients as nox-ich). I've used it once, but that was a mild case caught early on in quarantine. Still, it's prob. what I would go with. Of course, there are many choices.


Seems something is raising the pH in your tank. source water = 7.0-ish, tank = 8.0
what sort of decor in the tank....any shells? imo, too high, but may be something to look at later, unless the tank measure fluctuates (which would add to stress).

I'd agree the black spots, red gills could be due to ammonia poisoning.
The other--hole in fins, white edges, maybe even the sore on the pleco--sounds like finrot...Melafix may be a viable option for this. Although it's a mild med., I don't know that I'd recommend mixing w/ others. Severe cases may require anitibiotic.

So, since the ich remains...treat that first (per instructions).
I would move the delicate tank members (frogs, shrimp, snails) to the smaller tank and do water changes as necesary (daily?) to keep levels acceptable. I hope it's not too much a load, tho they're all fairly small, except snails, so I think it should work.

I'm a little confused on the ammonia reading (4.0), as per my test, I don't think fish would live to that level. But I'm sure your kit tells you what's acceptable.

 

[reg2k2]

Oh, I almost forgot. Some members swear by Maracyn I and Maracyn II. These products can be combined (if necessary), but I dont know what each is for offhand. Run a search on board or the net for product name or Mardel Laboratories and u sh. be able to pull it up. Or, if u catch CM on board, he should be able to advise you straight-away. Hope to help.

 

[ChelleDWC]

Ok... frogs, shrimp and snails have been moved to the newly-cleaned 2.5 gallon tank. In the process we discovered that one of the frogs had died, so we're now down to 5. Now... I know this tank will cycle since it's freshly-cleaned, so we will do frequent water changes for that and the overload.

Should I treat that tank with melafix due to possible fungal infections or even just for the stress of movements and as a possible preventative of high levels due to cycling?
Can I feed them?
My husband decided to move one of the live plants back into the little tank - will this cause a problem in terms of spreading infection?

The dead frog had one eye that looked sort of fuzzy, but it was hard to tell. I assume that's fungal?

There is a LOT of stuff in the gravel that we kicked up by catching the various frogs, etc. for the other tank. Since we're treating for ich and have to take the filter out, is that going to be a problem?

I've gathered that most people think the nox-ich is the way to go... the directions say half dosage for tanks with bottom feeders and tetras, so that's what we're doing. The directions say to treat for 3 days, skip a day and then treat for 3 more days. Does that sound acceptable or should we treat for longer? And will this treatment have any affect on that really injured pleco? Also, do we feed those fish? Should we continue the daily water changes because of the high ammonia, and if so, add medication commensurate with the added new water to keep the level stable?

With respect to the RO water - is there some sort of testing kit available to check whether I need to add electrolytes? And if not, is it possible that by adding them, I might cause an over-abundance (is there even such a thing)? And will these be harmful to any of my fish?

Now - are there any other testing kits I need to get?

I have the vial tests for ammonia and nitrate. I have a strip test for ph, and another that tests ph, nitrite, nitrate, hardness, and alkalinity. I plan on getting a vial kit for the nitrite and ph since these seem more accurate. What others are necessary?

Are there any other questions I should be asking that I'm not educated enough to ask??

You guys have all been so helpful and I can't thank you enough for all this advice. I feel tempted not to ask my lps for anything anymore and just go to you guys!!

 

[ChelleDWC]

Yikes.. read the last post after I posted and thus, after I began treating with the nox-ich. I hate to be stupid, but is CM the actually username or is that an abbreviation?

If Maracyn is better than nox-ich, is it safe to change meds like that? I saw both maracyn and maracyn II at the store, but was directed to these other products by the guy there.

 

[cichlidmaster]

CM is short for cichlidmaster!! HI!!

CM is easier to type LOL.

You have a pm as well..

By the way plants can carry the ick parasite and since the plants went straight from you 20 to the hospital there is a good chance (if the parassite was still in your 20) it hitchhicked to your hospital tank.

CM

 

[Alien Anna]

Chelle,

Should I treat that tank with melafix due to possible fungal infections or even just for the stress of movements and as a possible preventative of high levels due to cycling?

Melafix won't do any harm and could help.

Can I feed them?

Feed bare minimum once every other day and clean up any uneaten food immediately.

The dead frog had one eye that looked sort of fuzzy, but it was hard to tell. I assume that's fungal?

Its called Cloudy Eye and its a condition that Melafix is great for.

There is a LOT of stuff in the gravel that we kicked up by catching the various frogs, etc. for the other tank. Since we're treating for ich and have to take the filter out, is that going to be a problem?

I said take the carbon out of the filter, not take out the filter. You need a filter on there! Cleaning the gravel of the worst of the gunk is a good idea but don't give a really deep clean.

I've gathered that most people think the nox-ich is the way to go... the directions say half dosage for tanks with bottom feeders and tetras, so that's what we're doing. The directions say to treat for 3 days, skip a day and then treat for 3 more days. Does that sound acceptable or should we treat for longer?

Treat for longer - 10-14 days. I suggest you skip another day and treat for a further 3 days on top of that recommended on the bottle. However, you may have to work out just how much Nox-Ich to put in for the water change water - post here if you have trouble working out the quantities. Whatever the Nox-Ich package says, you will need to continue daily water changes.

And will this treatment have any affect on that really injured pleco?

It should help him.

Should we continue the daily water changes because of the high ammonia, and if so, add medication commensurate with the added new water to keep the level stable?

That's correct.

With respect to the RO water - is there some sort of testing kit available to check whether I need to add electrolytes? And if not, is it possible that by adding them, I might cause an over-abundance (is there even such a thing)? And will these be harmful to any of my fish?

I believe you can buy bottles of electrolyte powder appropriate to different kinds of tanks (tetras, discus, African Cichlids etc). But what I don't know is if there powders are essential or just a marketing ploy.

Now - are there any other testing kits I need to get?

You need a test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. I don't think there's anything else you need that common sense wouldn't be just as good for.

Are there any other questions I should be asking that I'm not educated enough to ask??

Don't think you've missed anything for the moment. Keep us posted as to how its going.

 

[ChelleDWC]

My ongoing saga...

as per CM's instructions to me (in a PM), we did a 50% water change in the 20 gallon, put in a new carbon filter and are running for 24 hours before switching to maracide and maracyn.

We lost the really sick pleco

Now we're having troubles with this little tank we've set up for the interim for the frogs/snails/shrimp. Ammonia levels were pretty high today and we did a water change on that as well. Carbon is out of the filter because we're using melafix on that tank (due to the other dead frog we had). Water change brought it down to 4.0, but just a little bit ago the frogs were acting REALLY agitated, some of the shrimp were, too. Levels are the same as what post-water change earlier (ammonia still 4.0). Just did another water change and brought it down to .75. I realize this tank hasn't cycled since we had to start fresh but I don't want to kill the lot of them by letting them ride out the high levels. What do I do? Are really really frequent (2 or more times per day) water changes going to be a problem? These guys have to live here for the next week plus while we're treating the big tank. I have some of those ammonia-locking tablets. Will that slow down the cycling process? Should we use them?

The other problem we're having with this little tank is that it has an incandescent light, which whenever on, raises the temp to around 82. I hate to leave them in the dark constantly, don't want to take the lid off for fear of escaping frogs (they'd be kitty or puppy snacks shortly), but isn't that high a temp bad for long-term? Is leaving off the light all the time bad?

Thanks again...

 

[suemack]

hi Chelle

I ended up sticking some of those ammo lock rocks into my 5 gall when I first set it up and lost most of my fish - ammonia test when I did it was dark brown - (way off the scale) - put them in and did lots of water changes - then more w/changes - then more..... I knew by then it would make the tank take longer to cycle but I couldn't stand the thought of losing all of the rest of the fish

good luck

sue

 

[reg2k2]

For a couple prev. q's u had...I wouldn't recommend medicating as a preventative; med's stress fish too, and could develop an immunity to 'em. and yes, Melafix is safe for pleco's...kinda a moot point for u now...sorry for ur losses.

Never seen the tab's u mention, but if it seems really hard to keep it down, and the frogs/others r showing effects, I would.
...just keep an eye on whether they have a reaction to the increased wc's...dont think they should, tho.
And keeping lights off can also reduce stress during treatment.

 

[ChelleDWC]

I have a couple more questions...

I am now on the 3rd day of treatment for ich and fungal infections using Maracide and Maracyn 2. My male betta is looking MUCH better, but one of the females has developed extremely swollen gills, especially on one side. It sticks way out and looks pretty painful. According to the little diagnosis sheet contained in the maracyn 2 package, I can use that to treat gill disease, but it also mentions other things such as tetracycline. Will the maracyn 2 be enough? I'd hate to add yet another medication to the mix, but will do so if necessary.

Also - suddenly my tank is filled with little white dots floating through the water. And they're all over the tank walls. My tetras seem to find them tasty () - is this the ich that I'm seeing everywhere? The dots on the sides seem to be just barely connected - water flow makes them wave back and forth (so they aren't strictly adhered to the side). They aren't opaque, I can see through them. The largest ones are about the size of a little pinhead. The best way I can describe it is that they look like tiny sacks adhered to the side of the tank walls and inter-connected with something invisible to me... since sections of them seem to move together. Is this some sort of funky algae?

Also, one of my tetras seems to have a smashed-in looking mouth. Like he ran really hard into a wall or something. It looks sort of mushed up and swollen. Is he just clumsy or is this yet another thing to worry about??

On a good note, it seems like my tank is finally really cycling. Our ammonia levels are almost zero, nitrates are going way up (plants are looking great now). We're doing a 10-15% water change to control levels. We've also noticed that as the ammonia level goes down, so also does the ph. Is that normal? Our tap ph comes up 7.0, but when ammonia levels were high, our ph went up to 8.

Chelle

 

[aquamanis]

Hi Chelle, hope everything works out for you. I know the fealing of having sick fish isn,t nice but hang in there! Anna, when mentioning medicines, it might be an idea to mention the ingredients as well as the brand/name. It seems a lot of treatments for ich and fungas use the same ingredients anyway (malachite green etc) Can you tell me whats in the Protazin you use please.