Help! Sick fish, contradicting advice...

[ChelleDWC]

Hi there. This is my first ever post to this forum, and I'm a beginner as well, so if I should be posting in the beginner section please let me know, and my apologies....

This fish thing started out simply as a little gift for my 2 year old son who loves to look at fish, and rapidly blossomed into a major project that I now realize I did all wrong...

First got a 2.5 gallon tank with 3 bettas, 2 african dwarf frogs. Decided we needed more room, got a 20 gallon and in the space of about a week and a half rapidly populated it with the male betta, 6 blood fin tetras, 2 baby plecostomus, 2 platies, 7 african dwarf frogs, and 8 ghost shrimp. Oh, and 6 snails. The 2.5 tank became home to another 2 baby plecostomus, two female bettas, and 2 small golden snails. Each tank had two live plants.

Suddenly we had two dead frogs, but I think it was just from shock of transfer (they had come into the LPS the day we bought them), then we had an enormous ammonia spike (go figure - I know I did this all wrong by adding so many so fast to a brand-new tank). Treated with jungle labs ammonia tablets and a partial water change, it went down quickly. Then we had to go away for the weekend. Came back and one plecostomus in each tank looked extremely sick, looked like ick... small white spots all over their bodies, one was really bad, even had holes in his fins. All three bettas have black dots on their upper fins. And our male betta looked horrible. Wasn't his normal playful self, hid in corners or half out of the water on top of the suction cup to the heater. Won't eat... So we treated with jungle labs ick tablets, which I've since read that people aren't that fond of. We lost one pleco (the really really bad one in teh big tank), the other one looked like he was starting to improve. We treated again (both tanks) 24 hours later. Then I read about possible salt bath being extremely helpful, but we had no aquarium salt and I didn't know how it would affect all the other fish/frogs/snails. The male betta has a few white spots on his body and fins, is clamping his fins together, his gills look bright red, has general malaise, he hides, and just looks sorta funny in general.

I've now moved all the fish and plants to the 20 gallon tank, since I figured it was easier to treat everyone there, and I'm going to set up the small tank as a hospital tank after cleaning it thoroughly. The large tank now has 6 apple snails, 7 or so ghost shrimp, 2 platies, 1 male, 2 female bettas, 6 blood fin tetras, 6 ADF, 2 baby plecostomus. Also 3 live plants. Water temp hovers around 76-78F. Heavy aeration. None of our fish seem to like dry food, so we feed frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp, and have algae tablets for the plecostomus.

My problem is, I've read about heating up the tank, but the guy at the LPS told me to lower the temp to 74 because that raises the oxygen content in the water. I've read about salt baths, but this guy also said that I should never ever put salt in with any freshwater fish, it can blind them, etc, etc. He gave me some drops that he said had worked for him before. He told me to put the carbon filter back in, run it for 24 hours to get the jungle labs stuff out of the water, then turn off the filter and put these drops in and to treat both tanks. Also told me that I need to get the nets into some really hot water to kill the bacteria/whatever on them. I've read lots of information about different medicine and what people think is best, but I don't know what will harm different fish/plants/frogs/snails/shrimp.

So... please someone help me out here. I want to know what to give my poor fish. I'd really like to correct the mistakes I've made so far and get these guys off to a good start. I've gotten books galore and spend every night trying to get information, but am having a hard time assimilating it all, not to mention that a lot of places don't mention the affects of some things on plants, snails, shrimp, frogs.

As for current tank conditions, ph is in the neutral range, generally around 7.0, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate are all zero or slightly elevated (.25 at most). We have a reverse osmosis filter on all the water in the house, so we have no problems with chlorine, etc. We do a 25% water change once or twice per week, clean the filter once per week and are planning on changing it once per month. Gravel vacuum once per week.

Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks!!!

 

[reg2k2]

The advice from lfs is mostly accurate. Higher temp's do lower the O2 content. The purpose of raising the temp (80-82deg) while treating ich is to speed up the life-cycle of the parasite, and hopefully shorten length of treatment. I've not heard of salt blinding fish, although it is not recommended for scaleless fish, like plecos and tetras. Just going by how land snails react to salt, I'm guessing a no for them, too.

What sort of drops did he give you?

 

[Alien Anna]

I'm afraid I got rather lost in your long story so I'm not sure what point you're up to now. So, this is probably more general information than you were maybe hoping for.

Firstly, you need to get your tank or tanks cycled. If you follow the link in my sig you can read about what that means and how to do it. It is important you understand the background to all of our advice.

Secondly, I'm a little concerned about the potential future size of some of your fish - your pleco, for instance, could grow to be a 2.5 foot monster, if it's a common pleco. However, that is a issue for another day.

Thirdly, if you have ich (whitespot) in your tank you will need to treat that at the same time as following the schedule in my article for cycling the tank with fish. Get a good ich treatment such as Protazin and start treating according to the instructions on the bottle. However, continue treating for 10 days just to make sure you've thoroughly killed the parasite. Ich usually affects fish who've been stressed in some way. You can also raise the temperature of the tank to about 80F as that will help the treatment work faster. You can't add salt since you have a pleco and pleco's can't tolerate salt, but if you have a tank with fish other than tetras, corys, plecos etc. you can use salt and it should help keep the ich at bay.

Come back to us if you've any further questions.

 

[ChelleDWC]

Hi, and thanks for the advice...

I believe my tank cycled already. We had the appropriate blooms, and our problems started after that - or is there more yet to come?

I was given 4 different things that the lps guy said I might try, one in particular which he said worked for him. They are: Melafix, with a main ingredient of Melaleuca 1.0%; BettaFix Remedy, main ingredient melaleuca .2%; Nox-Ich, sodium chloride .50%, malachite green .50%; and the thing he said he'd used before, QuickCure, which just says it contains Malachite Green and Formalin, but not their percentages.

I know that the pleco's will grow to enormous sizes and that we will eventually have to move them elsewhere, but my husband really really wanted them.

So, of the above, which do you recommend? And will it be harmful to any of the fish/frogs/snails/shrimp/plants? Or would you recommend something else?

BTW, my betta seems to be in a somewhat better mood, is no longer hiding, and is eating now, but still has his back fin somewhat twisted around unless he decides to flare at the females. The white spots seem to be receding, though the edges of his fins don't look so hot, and his gills are still pretty red and rough looking.

Thanks!
-Chelle

 

[Alien Anna]

I believe my tank cycled already. We had the appropriate blooms, and our problems started after that - or is there more yet to come?

As long as you don't other enthusiastically clean your filter, forget to use dechlorinated water or suffer a power cut, it should be fine from that POV, but its always good to understand how cycling happens, just in case. A sudden nitrite spike can happen to anyone at any time.

I was given 4 different things that the lps guy said I might try, one in particular which he said worked for him. They are: Melafix, with a main ingredient of Melaleuca 1.0%; BettaFix Remedy, main ingredient melaleuca .2%; Nox-Ich, sodium chloride .50%, malachite green .50%; and the thing he said he'd used before, QuickCure, which just says it contains Malachite Green and Formalin, but not their percentages.

Melafix is great stuff - I use it a lot, but its more of a tonic and preventative than effective treatment for an illness. It is good for fungal and minor bacterial infections. It does absolutely nothing for ich/whitespot, which is caused by a parasite.

Betafix is very similar to Melafix, but specifically formulated for bettas.

Nox-Ich is an ich treatment but be warned - by the sounds of it, it could adversely affect your filter and may not be the best treatment for scaleless fish (like plecos). However, it should tell you on the package if there are any precautions you should take. You need to use something for ich and this is an ich treatment.

QuickCure has been nicknamed "QuickKill" by some forums I'm on, due to the formulin in it having the tendency to kill off beneficial bacteria. It is an ich treatment but you should either use QuickCure or Nox-Ich, not both.

I personally use Waterlife's Protazin for ich, and King British WS3 (because its cheaper) but I don't think it really matters, as long as you're aware of the potential side-effects. The important thing is to treat the ick.

I know that the pleco's will grow to enormous sizes and that we will eventually have to move them elsewhere, but my husband really really wanted them.

That's fine - some people like large fish and large tanks to put them in. Nothing wrong with that as long as you're prepared.

BTW, my betta seems to be in a somewhat better mood, is no longer hiding, and is eating now, but still has his back fin somewhat twisted around unless he decides to flare at the females. The white spots seem to be receding, though the edges of his fins don't look so hot, and his gills are still pretty red and rough looking.

The main problem with male bettas is that they are incredibly territorial (may even kill females if they are not receptive, not to mention other fish) and ironically are quite delicate and tend to get attacked by other fish who nip their fins. I would not keep a male betta in a tank with females, even if it was a species tank, and certainly not a community tank. I don't know what your set-up is, but you'd be best to keep the male betta in a small tank on his own. Post any questions to the Bettas and Gouramis section and you can get some advice from the real experts on these fish.

 

[reg2k2]

I'll agree Melafix is great stuff...skin abrasions/open wounds, etc.

I'm a bit dubious about products that claim to cure in 2dys, considering life-cycle of ich is 3dys. On the other hand, I have seen it recommended on some sites and have never used it myself so...it may work. NOT recommended for invertebrates, tho!! Quick Cure

Not sure on nox-ich...
In fact, I'm at a loss as to med's for shellfish, and the frogs for that matter.
You may be able to transfer them to the smaller tank while u treat the others?
Hopefully others will have more advice...

 

[ChelleDWC]

After a careful examination of all our fish, it appears that the betta no longer has white spots and seems to be doing better. He doesn't hold his fins close to his body, but his back fin seems to be "flipped" over - is this perhaps a common thing for bettas and he just likes it that way? I don't remember if he did this before. We had previously treated the tank twice (24 hours apart) with the Jungle Labs ick tablets. Could it be that cured the problem?? Or should I still treat even though no fish shows signs of it at the moment? Is it safe to treat for a possibly nonexistant problem??

The Nox-Ich package says you're supposed to use half the dosage for fish such as bottom feeders, tetras, scaleless fish. Since it's 50% sodium chloride, should I be concerned about using this even with the half dosage?

Also, we now have another problem. A plecostomus has suddenly developed this huge red sore on his back that appears slightly fuzzy. I take it from what you've said here and what the packaging says that Melafix is the way to treat this... it says it's safe for invertebrates... is it also safe for scaleless fish such as the pleco? It doesn't say one way or the other... And should I do this at the same time I treat for ich, if I still need to treat for that?? This sore looks so bad I almost want to treat this before I do the ich, if I need to do both. How could he have gotten this so fast??? He didn't have it earlier today.

I sure hope these problems end soon!!!

Thanks again for all your help!!!

Chelle

 

[Alien Anna]

Hi Chelle,
you've really got problems in that tank

The ich may have stopped having obvious symptoms but the parasite lives in the gravel so if you stop treating now, it will come back. You need to continue treating for at least 10 days (whatever it says on the packet). The little bit of salt in the Nox-Ich probably won't hurt your plecos however it may well kill your shrimp. You need to give him a temporary home while you treat (a hospital tank is a must).

The fungal sore on your pleco sounds serious. In fact, I am afraid you might lose him. I'm also concerned that this is actually body rot, a severe form of fin rot. You need to put him in a hospital tank and start treating with some fungus treatment - Melafix is too mild for such a serious infection. Alternatively, many ich treatments also treat fungus. Protazin is one of them. I think if I were you I'd treat the whole tank with Waterlife's Protazin and put the shrimp in a fish bowl or icecream tub for a while (if you can get a sponge filter in there running off an air-pump and do daily large water changes the shrimp should be fine).

Meanwhile, you realise of course that these diseases are a symptom of problems in your water quality, so you need to continue to work on getting your water as good as possible - get rid of unnecessary chemicals, do frequent partial water changes and try to get ammonia and nitrite at zero and nitrates <25ppm. Don't touch pH or be tempted to add anything to the water to change its pH or softness.

 

[Pufferpack]

Just my 2 cents worth, but IMO the spots white/black, red gills, sore on the Plec, holes in the fin, sounds like ammonia burn/poisoning...I may be wrong but that's the first thing that I thought of after reading the original post.

 

[Alien Anna]

Just my 2 cents worth, but IMO the spots white/black, red gills, sore on the Plec, holes in the fin, sounds like ammonia burn/poisoning...I may be wrong but that's the first thing that I thought of after reading the original post.

We know that the tank isn't cycled - that was the no.1 issue, but its a case of trying to unpick what happened in this disaster. As per usual, the LFS has been selling this poor person product after product, totally confusing them and making what was basically one mistake into a whole pile of them.

I suspect this is the sequence of events:
1. Large numbers of fish, frogs and invertebrates added to an un-cycled tank (strictly two uncycled tanks, but I think that's irrelevant. The point was the tanks weren't cycled). No beneficial bacteria to turn the ammonia into nitrite and the nitrite into nitrate.
2. Fish and frogs started dying due to ammonia spike.
3. LFS suggests turning temperature down which, combined with the ammonia, lead to an outbreak of ich (ich thrives at lower temperatures, as does fungus). Ich being an infection that affects fish at a low ebb.
4. Ich not treated appropriately (the Jungle ich treatment wasn't done for long enough) and with the lower temperature and ammonia, fungal infections inevitably appeared. To add insult to injury, the ich treatment was the sort liable to adversely affect beneficial bacteria.
5. Due to some mad and appalling advice the ich treatment was removed with carbon and then the filter was turned off! This lead to the die-back of the beneficial bacteria that was struggling to establish itself in the filter and probably an ammonia and/or nitrite spike.

So, at this point we've got several fish and invertebrates in a 20 gal, incompletely cycled tank. In fact, if I've understood correctly, this is effectively a new tank since they cleaned it out and basically started from scratch. The fish have had their immune systems damaged so they are susceptible to every oportunistic infection around - ich, fungus, bacterial infections and poisoning. Some of the fish have active ich, which needs treating as a matter of urgency. One fish has a severe fungal infection and may not make it.

My recommendation is to follow the procedures for cycling with fish (discussed in my article that's in my sig) whilst treating the ich and fungus with a good, general fungus and ich treatment such as Waterlife's Protazin. Because they will need to do daily water changes, they should add the amount of treatment commensurate with the amount of water they've swapped out, to keep the concentration at the effective level. They should keep the temperature steady at about 80F as that will kill the fungus and free the ich so the treatment can kill it.

They should avoid salt as that isn't good for plecs or tetras and if they use RO they need to make sure the water has sufficient electrolytes. They will need to do daily water tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.

Meanwhile, they should keep their snails and shrimps in the 2.5 gal hospital tank as the treatments would kill them. They can put some Melafix in the invertebrate hospital tank just to make sure they haven't got any nasties they are carrying.

 

[cichlidmaster]

I can really only add one thing at this stage................

ChelleDWC does not state where they are from!!!

Waterlife products are not available in the states so if they are located here they will not find it.

CM

 

[ChelleDWC]

Wow, you guys, I feel HORRIBLE! I would never willingly put any creature through all of this, and I hate the fact that I have due to lack of or mis-information. I'm almost tempted to put these poor things out of their misery now if you don't think there's any hope!

I am indeed in the states, so from what I understand I can't get Protazin? I did a search to even see if there was some way I could get it from overseas as fast as possible, but can't even find somewhere to purchase it. Is there anything comparable over here??

If not, what do I use??? Or do I give all up as lost?

One thing for sure, I'm going to try to find another fish store! We actually tried two different ones. The first place - where we bought our tank, all the supplies, and all the fish, never offered any sort of information. It was obvious we were starting out. I can't tell you the amount of times I had to go back to buy this or that testing kit because no one ever told us we needed any of it! The second store we tried was because we were somewhat disgusted with the first after realizing how much they did not help us, and this guy sounded at least somewhat knowledgable, but now it sounds like he really didn't know much, either. He actually told us we were doing everything right and that this was just something that happens sometimes!

So... should I find a way to peacefully euthanize these poor things and start over with more knowledge now? Or is there something I can do without the Protazin? Thanks again for all your help.

Chelle

 

[Alien Anna]

Chelle,
I'm certainly not trying to make you feel bad - I'm just trying to work out what happened so we can better help you and hopefully save your fish. You can still save the majority of them if you work at it.

Protazin is not available so I'll leave it to the Americans on the list to recommend a good whitespot and fungus treatment to use. There's bound to be something good out there. When you get the treatment, use it as directed by for a little longer than usual, 10-14 days to make sure the ich is well and truly beaten.

If the treatment is for fungus as well your pleco will either make it or he won't - there is nothing more you can do but it may be enough. We'll just have to wait and see. Fish can be remarkable survivors sometimes.

In the meantime if your ammonia and nitrite levels are now zero and you have nitrate appearing in your tank you can conclude then tank is cycled so daily water changes are no longer required. If however you get the slightest bit of ammonia or nitrite, do daily water changes until they go down again. Leave your filter alone, except for clearing blockages (clean it out in used tank water if that occurs).

Could you give me a run down of where you're at now, in terms of fish, size of tank etc. ? You really shouldn't give up now, just when you're getting the situation sorted.

 

[ChelleDWC]

Ok, here's where we're at. It's a 20 gallon tank, with the following fish:
2 platies
6 African Dwarf frogs
5 ghost shrimp
4 apple snails
1 male, 2 female bettas
2 plecostomus
6 blood fin tetras

Also, 3 live plants
Heavy aeration, water temp 80F, carbon filter.
We have a reverse-osmosis filter on the house, so all our tap water is chlorine-free and in the neutral ph range.

ph has risen to 7.8, and now the ammonia and nitrite levels have started spiking again. Ammonia at 4, Nitrite at 10. We just did a 15-20% water change. We have those ammonia-locking tablets, but from what I read on your site, those aren't necessarily good? We also noticed there is some waste in some areas of the gravel - should we leave that for the beneficial bacteria? And should I stop feeding them and for how long?

So here's where we're at now. I haven't done any sort of ich treatment since two days ago. Our little tank has been totally cleaned out to start fresh, which means it will have to totally re-cycle, so what do I do for a hospital tank if I need one? I'm still not sure exactly which of these treatments to use or if I should go get another one. Can I start one of these treatments and then change it if someone mentions something better that I can find here in the states? Or is mixing medications like that more harmful than good?

By the way, I sure wish I'd known about the fishless cycling before starting all of this!

Oh, and no fish dead yet. I half expected to find them all gone this morning. The bettas and the pleco just look horrible. The male betta looked like he was coughing last night. The shrimp appear to have white spots on them now, too, but it's sort of hard to tell.

Let me know if more info would be helpful.

 

[ChelleDWC]

whoops! My bad - nitrAte was 10, has now lowered to 7 with the water change. I just realized we don't even have a nitrite kit!!! Off to the store I go...

Water change did not seem to affect ammonia level. Now what?