Help needed before I throw in the towel

[Ceri84]

The set up and fish (rummys etc) cost me an absolute fortune and more than was anticipated and now I don’t currently have the funds to replace my daughters rummys hence feeling a little deflated and like it’s all been for nothing meanwhile my blue eyed lemon bristlenose has gone back on eggs again in the 60ltr doh!

 

[Colin_T]

You cleaned the filters 2 days ago, fed catfish pellets last night and added 5 guppies, and this morning the rummynose were dead with huge stomachs.

The photograph of the tank looks like the water is milky cloudy and there is a lot of dots (suspended bits) in the water and possibly white worms on the glass. Is that correct or is the photo just making the water look cloudy and full of suspended particles?

Same picture of tank, right half of tank there is a blue grey rock. On the left of the rock is brown patches on the gravel. Is that fish food/ catfish pellets?

My guess is the catfish pellets are breaking down overnight and creating ammonia. The rummynose might have eaten a lot of them. The ammonia levels went up due to the pellets and filter cleaning 2 days ago. Fish died from ammonia poisoning after a big feed. However, ammonia, nitrite & nitrate tests need to be done to confirm that.

Grab a glass of tank water and take it to the local petshop for testing or get your kit back from your friend. Before you go to the petshop or friend to test the water, do a 75% water change and gravel clean and then test the sample you take out before the water change.

 

[Byron]

Given the live plants, ammonia or nitrite (i.e., some sort of cycling or mini-cycle) seems highly unlikely as the plants would easily deal with ammonia from so few fish. Same with ammonia from food, or even dead fish.

That leaves possible disease with the new fish being introduced, or significant water parameter issues, or a toxin in the water from décor or substrate.

Water parameters refers to hardness, carbonate hardness (Alkalinity), pH and temperature. The first three depend upon your source water, plus any objects in the aquarium that might affect these. Tracking down your water authority to find the GH, KH and pH is crucial to sorting this out. You do not need a test kit for GH/KH once you know the tap water numbers. A pH kit is a good investment.

And a test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is worth the money; the API Master Combo includes all four.

Please do not consider more fish until this is well resolved. It is possible the fish were infected, or it is something in the tank itself.

 

[Ceri84]

Lol, Definately no worms of any kind, and the ‘ ‘particles’ you mention are bubbles from the filters

Wouldn’t say they had huge stomachs more that there stomach or that area appeared to be outside of their body?

Water is mostly clear now, but maybe a tinge still cloudiness to it but probably more the led light and poor photography on my part making it look worse than it is
Think the brown you refer to is combination of the wood at the back and plant root/leaf and a couple of small stones? There is no waste matter of any sort on the sand?

 

[Ceri84]

Given the live plants, ammonia or nitrite (i.e., some sort of cycling or mini-cycle) seems highly unlikely as the plants would easily deal with ammonia from so few fish. Same with ammonia from food, or even dead fish.

That leaves possible disease with the new fish being introduced, or significant water parameter issues, or a toxin in the water from décor or substrate.

Water parameters refers to hardness, carbonate hardness (Alkalinity), pH and temperature. The first three depend upon your source water, plus any objects in the aquarium that might affect these. Tracking down your water authority to find the GH, KH and pH is crucial to sorting this out. You do not need a test kit for GH/KH once you know the tap water numbers. A pH kit is a good investment.

And a test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is worth the money; the API Master Combo includes all four.

Please do not consider more fish until this is well resolved. It is possible the fish were infected, or it is something in the tank itself.

So if my water is with Essex and Suffolk water company how do I find out these?

 

[Ceri84]

You cleaned the filters 2 days ago, fed catfish pellets last night and added 5 guppies, and this morning the rummynose were dead with huge stomachs.

The photograph of the tank looks like the water is milky cloudy and there is a lot of dots (suspended bits) in the water and possibly white worms on the glass. Is that correct or is the photo just making the water look cloudy and full of suspended particles?

Same picture of tank, right half of tank there is a blue grey rock. On the left of the rock is brown patches on the gravel. Is that fish food/ catfish pellets?

My guess is the catfish pellets are breaking down overnight and creating ammonia. The rummynose might have eaten a lot of them. The ammonia levels went up due to the pellets and filter cleaning 2 days ago. Fish died from ammonia poisoning after a big feed. However, ammonia, nitrite & nitrate tests need to be done to confirm that.

Grab a glass of tank water and take it to the local petshop for testing or get your kit back from your friend. Before you go to the petshop or friend to test the water, do a 75% water change and gravel clean and then test the sample you take out before the water change.

New photo I just took with light off and filter not on the bubble option

 

[Ceri84]

With no flash either

 

[Essjay]

Enter your postcode in the box on this page. https://www.eswater.co.uk/your-home/your-account/your-area.aspx
The layout and colour scheme are exactly the same as my water company (Northumbrian Water) If it carries on the same, when you click on go it should take you to the next page which will give your hardness in words and a number as mg/l Ca, but under that is a box 'more about water hardness' - click on that and it should give something like the attached screenshot. Click on 'convert to alternative measurements' and make a note of the figure for mg/l as calcium carbonate, and the one for deg German. Those are the two units used in fish keeping.

UK water companies rarely give KH.

If you then click on 'water quality report' and download the detailed report it gives a list of different chemicals, go down to Hydrogen ion - that's what pH measures - and across the table to the mean value. That's the pH of your tap water.


Edit - just noticed that the home page says that our two water companies are both part of Northumbrian Water which is why the websites are the same

 

[Ceri84]

Enter your postcode in the box on this page. https://www.eswater.co.uk/your-home/your-account/your-area.aspx
The layout and colour scheme are exactly the same as my water company (Northumbrian Water) If it carries on the same, when you click on go it should take you to the next page which will give your hardness in words and a number as mg/l Ca, but under that is a box 'more about water hardness' - click on that and it should give something like the attached screenshot. Click on 'convert to alternative measurements' and make a note of the figure for mg/l as calcium carbonate, and the one for deg German. Those are the two units used in fish keeping.

UK water companies rarely give KH.

If you then click on 'water quality report' and download the detailed report it gives a list of different chemicals, go down to Hydrogen ion - that's what pH measures - and across the table to the mean value. That's the pH of your tap water.


Edit - just noticed that the home page says that our two water companies are both part of Northumbrian Water which is why the websites are the same

Got to phone for exact results so I’ll try do that, if no answer I’ll call tomorrow

 

[Colin_T]

Given the live plants, ammonia or nitrite (i.e., some sort of cycling or mini-cycle) seems highly unlikely as the plants would easily deal with ammonia from so few fish. Same with ammonia from food, or even dead fish.

Whilst that is true during the day when the plants are photosynthesising, they do not use ammonia at night when asleep. If the catfish pellets are breaking down at night, the filter might not be able to deal with it. Plus the tank was apparently cloudy in the morning when the fish were dead. And cloudy water is just about always too much food.

I could be wrong, and water tests need to be done to confirm the filter is working efficiently.

 

[Essjay]

Ah, I just picked a supermarket postcode in Essex & Sussex Water area, and the website is not the same as mine after the first page. Sorry about that. But at least it does give you the phone number.

Don't let them just give you words for the hardness, tell them you want it in mg/l calcium carbonate and German degrees.
And ask them for the alkalinity. That's what water companies call KH.

 

[Byron]

Whilst that is true during the day when the plants are photosynthesising, they do not use ammonia at night when asleep. If the catfish pellets are breaking down at night, the filter might not be able to deal with it. Plus the tank was apparently cloudy in the morning when the fish were dead. And cloudy water is just about always too much food.

I could be wrong, and water tests need to be done to confirm the filter is working efficiently.

The ammonia should still not be anywhere near sufficient to kill the fish. Fish would not live through the night if that were not the case. The bacteria would easy handle this. We've no reason to think otherwise here, from what we have been told.

Cloudy water can be due to many things; I have a problem with this in one tank from organics, and I can assure you it is not too much food. Suspended particulate matter, bacterial, diatom and organic blooms are all possibles. Generally cloudy water is not toxic, but we cannot be certain of that without knowing what is going on here.

 

[Ceri84]

Thanks guys, going to ring in morning...pretty certain I don’t overfeed and when I say I dropped a couple of pellets in it was literally that...maybe 5 pellets and that is probably only done every 3ish days, and flakes is once a day but probably not even enough for one flake per fish if that makes sense?!
The corys still look happy at present so at least for now I will leave them in there, filter is better than the tank size needs but I was told when purchased that you can’t over filter?!?
Will also try and get water tested tomorrow either by my own kit or by a store
I am almost certain it isn’t ammonia that’s caused this but am completely miffed as to what it could be as never experienced this before but then never had a sand based or planted tank before either?

 

[IHaveADogToo]

This being your first sand based tank makes me wonder... how deep is your sand substrate?

I ask, because with sand, if it's deep enough, it's possible for gas pockets to develop below the surface of the substrate. After adding all those fish in, the substrate may have been disturbed, and that gas may have been released into the water.

When laying a sand substrate, you have to routinely stir it up, to make sure gas pockets don't form. Or, you have to use less substrate. I try to keep the sand at less than 2 inches deep in my tanks, to help avoid such pockets.

 

[Byron]

Thanks guys, going to ring in morning...pretty certain I don’t overfeed and when I say I dropped a couple of pellets in it was literally that...maybe 5 pellets and that is probably only done every 3ish days, and flakes is once a day but probably not even enough for one flake per fish if that makes sense?!
The corys still look happy at present so at least for now I will leave them in there, filter is better than the tank size needs but I was told when purchased that you can’t over filter?!?
Will also try and get water tested tomorrow either by my own kit or by a store
I am almost certain it isn’t ammonia that’s caused this but am completely miffed as to what it could be as never experienced this before but then never had a sand based or planted tank before either?

If the sand is inert, meaning, it does not affect GH and pH, there should be no problem. I think earlier as water change of 20% was mentioned...you should be doing more than this volume, I would suggest half the tank once a week (at one time). Add water conditioner for the fresh water being added, not for the whole tank; not needed, and no pint in wasting money plus it does get inside fish so the less the better. Water changes can be an amazing "cure" for many things.

It is possible to over filter; or more correctly, there is no benefit as a filter can only filter according to the biological system, and more is not going to help and may hinder, but let's not worry about that here. It is not this issue.