Help! Conflicting Info From Two Stores

[Prime Ordeal]

Just did another water change, 50% this time. That's two 30% changes and a 50% change in the last 12-14 hours. And I haven't seen a single change to my ammonia or nitrite numbers.

Only two possibilities then:
1. The nitrite is high out of the tap - test it. If it is 5ppm or more from the tap that's well outside legal limits (usually 0.5ppm) and you should contact your water board.

2. The nitrite is low to non-existent from the tap. If that's the case and water changes aren't changing the nitrite readings at all, then you have a faulty test kit.

I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time with these water changes, honestly. The books I've read about the in-fish tank cycle all show the ammonia levels peaking at about 4.0 ppm about a week into the cycle and then dropping as the nitrite levels rise up to about 4.0 ppm around the second week -- which is exactly where we are -- then the nitrate levels starting to rise after that... which they are.

Ammonia and nitrite levels at 4ppm will kill your fish in a very short time (unless you have some form of detoxifier at work). At the very least you'd be seeing signs of distress from the fish. That's fact.

 

[Fuego]

Thanks again, everyone, for all of your answers and help. This is obviously a really active board and I appreciate everything.

Prime Ordeal, I did test my water out of the tap. Here's what I found:

pH: 7.5 or 7.6 -- which is slightly more alkaline than the tank water has been testing at
ammonia: .25 ppm -- which is EXACTLY what the tank water has been testing at
nitrite: between .25 and .50 ppm
nitrate: 0

Also, I wasn't meaning to correct your spelling, honestly. I was using the quote marks just to show I was using your word. How to spell that word is an anamaly, onomoly, amonaly to me, too! And that is really interesting about API tests sometimes showing bad results for nitrite tests. I will bring a sample of my water in to my pet store to have them do a test, too. They use the chemical tests, but I'm pretty sure it isn't API.

 

[Fuego]

(( Question: Should I turn off my heater while doing water changes, since the water level is dropping below the top of the heater??? There's still water in the tank, but I'm afraid it might crack if it overheats. ))

you'll want to unplug your filter and heater during water changes to avoid potential damage


My nitrates ARE going up (or I didn't do the test properly the first time)!!! It's somewhere around 10ppm. I think that's good news and maybe sign that the cycle is continuing.

that's a good sign. API's nitrate test thing is actually rather hard to use, takes a lot of shaking and banging against things with one of the bottles to get it right, miss-testing is kind of common.

Ammonia is low, I'd say between 0 and .25 based on the color of the test.

pH is the same, I'll maybe add some bogwood in there later on as ShinySideUp and Rummynose said, but I have enough to worry about right now.

A steady pH is better than a somewhat unsuitable one. Try not to mess with it all too much if your fish are already used to it. Especially with harder fish like platies.

I'm unplugging my heater and filter during water changes, now, thanks!

I misread the instructions on the nitrate test the first time and shook the TEST TUBE vigorously for 30 seconds after putting the drops in from bottle #2, instead of correctly shaking the bottle FIRST before putting the drops in the tube. I'm doing it correctly, now, just about throwing a muscle out I'm shaking the bottle so violently! LOL.

And I've read that about pH, that it's more important to keep it steady than to mess with it. And since my water is coming out of the tap that alkaline, I'm inclined to leave it alone if the fish seem okay. Later on down the line, assuming my fish make it through the cycling and I start adding more fish, I'll be sure and get breeds that can handle 7.5 or so.

 

[Fuego]

Welcome to the forums Here are a few rules of fish keeping

Rule #1: Don't listen to your LFS
Rule #2: Don't Listen To Your LFS
Rule #3: Don't Give Advice Given To You From An LFS

I'm not supposed to listen to people who've been in the fish business for over 40 years, have employees who have worked in the fish industry for 20 years, who will test my water any time I bring in a sample, for free, have given me full credit for any problems I've had, on my word, that have patiently explained things to me multiple times, have suggested I NOT buy something if they didn't think I needed it, have spent 20-30 minutes at a time with me even when the store is busy ???

(And that all describes the "first" store I went to, NOT the "second" store which panicked me... for those of you who've been reading this thread from the beginning. The guy at the second store knew nothing about my tank or the situation, panicked me, sold me about $50 worth of stuff, then disappeared. I had a follow up question for him over the phone yesterday and he never even returned my call.)

And instead of the experts at the local fish store I'm supposed to trust complete strangers online who I have no idea who they are, how old they are, how experienced they are with fish, etc, etc, etc. ???

Yes, I am very DEFINITELY listening to you guys. I appreciate all the support. I joined the forum because I'd spent a bunch of time reading here and felt like it was a good, active forum. But I've learned over the years to be VERY, VERY suspicious -- or at the very least, cautious -- about what I read online. Lots of people spouting off information and opinions on every subject imaginable, cars, politics, movies, the environment, etc. Websites OFTEN have flat out innacurate, even dangerous, "information" and opinions about things. And with most things I've found if you read on 10 different websites you'll get AT LEAST 10 different opinions.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, onidrase, or to pick a fight with you... I'm just wondering "out loud" about your statement... which I have seen many times on several different fish tank forums.

 

[Rummynose]

I've found these two sites regarding tap water quality in your area:

http/www.pwd.org/pdf/CCR_Final_new_web.pdf

http/www.pwd.org/environment/tapwater/quality_analysis.php#Why are some concentrations different in the untreated vs. treated water

According to this you do have readings of Ammonia and Nitrite in your tap water, but very minimal. So, it sounds very possible that your test is faulty! It sounds also very possible that you are close to, if not already cycled with your tank!

 

[FishFanatic04]

Honestly, You are getting a lot of information from a lot of sources, so I get the scepticism. One good thing you can take from here is that basically everyone who has written you here so far has had the same opinions. And even though your second store wasn't very customer friendly..they did seem to have the same opinions as the people here. The first store may have been in the business for a long time but they don't seem too worried about the health and safety of your fish, otherwise they wouldn't have helped you overstock an uncycled tank. They wouldn't have sent you home with say...8 puppies...without the right accommodations I'm sure. I don't trust anyone who treats fish as expendable creatures. Maybe they have been in the business so long they aren't bothered if fish die.

I have ammonia in my tap water and I use Seachem Prime which can help make the water safer for my fish when it goes in. It also says on the bottle that it can help with Nitrites as well. It won't change your test results but may help your fish be more comfortable until the bacteria can clear it from the water. It has been highly recommended on this forum as well as by my local fish stores. Just a suggestion for you to look into.

 

[Fuego]

I've found these two sites regarding tap water quality in your area:

http/www.pwd.org/p...nal_new_web.pdf

http/www.pwd.org/e...nalysis.php#Why are some concentrations different in the untreated vs. treated water

According to this you do have readings of Ammonia and Nitrite in your tap water, but very minimal. So, it sounds very possible that your test is faulty! It sounds also very possible that you are close to, if not already cycled with your tank!

Rummynose, wow, I really appreciate the effort! Unfortunately, I live in Portland OREGON and these water reports are for Portland MAINE.

 

[Rummynose]

I've found these two sites regarding tap water quality in your area:

http/www.pwd.org/p...nal_new_web.pdf

http/www.pwd.org/e...nalysis.php#Why are some concentrations different in the untreated vs. treated water

According to this you do have readings of Ammonia and Nitrite in your tap water, but very minimal. So, it sounds very possible that your test is faulty! It sounds also very possible that you are close to, if not already cycled with your tank!

Rummynose, wow, I really appreciate the effort! Unfortunately, I live in Portland OREGON and these water reports are for Portland MAINE.

LOL LOL well, at least I got Brownie points for trying!

 

[Fuego]

I've found these two sites regarding tap water quality in your area:

http/www.pwd.org/p...nal_new_web.pdf

http/www.pwd.org/e...nalysis.php#Why are some concentrations different in the untreated vs. treated water

According to this you do have readings of Ammonia and Nitrite in your tap water, but very minimal. So, it sounds very possible that your test is faulty! It sounds also very possible that you are close to, if not already cycled with your tank!

Rummynose, wow, I really appreciate the effort! Unfortunately, I live in Portland OREGON and these water reports are for Portland MAINE.

LOL LOL well, at least I got Brownie points for trying!

Don't worry... It happens to me all the time when I'm doing searches for Portland; I start reading a page thinking I've found something useful, and then I notice someone mention Maine or the Northeast or something!

 

[ShinySideUp]

My last input on this matter Fuego. And I say calmly and quietly I think your tank is doing fine.

 

[FishFanatic04]

opps ShinySideUp did say Seachem Prime. Duh! Good luck! Feel free to post pics of your tank. That's my fav part about the forum.

 

[Tolak]

And instead of the experts at the local fish store I'm supposed to trust complete strangers online who I have no idea who they are, how old they are, how experienced they are with fish, etc, etc, etc. ???

Welcome to TFF! I'm John, 52 years young, my tanks & such are in my profile, as is my location. They tell me I'm supposed to do stuff around this forum, I usually do, when I'm not messing with my tanks, 3 dogs, or old trucks. I work full time in the printing industry, most often as a pressman.

I mostly breed NW cichlids when I have the time, angels in particular. I sell a variety of items on the side, blackworms, dry food, along with fish. When life gets too busy for breeding I'll get fish in, looking at getting 300-500 angels in this week, besides assorted other species from a much larger breeder. I sell fish to shops, I might sell to the second shop you mentioned, I would not sell to the first, I'm very selective in this respect. I'll get in 25-40 pounds of worms, 20 pounds of dry food, and turn it around in a matter of weeks, the fish might take a month or so.

I've held various exec, board and committee positions in my local aquarist society, have written and enacted various programs, put on various presentations, run various events, and so forth. I'm a regular vendor at many club related events around the Midwest, often contacted & requested to be a vendor at these events.

So I guess I'm not a complete stranger any more! In my mind a professional is someone who makes the majority of their living at that profession, so I guess I'm not a professional. The guy selling burgers at McDonalds probably does, so I guess you could call him a professional. The sales staff at most local fish shops are a step above burger guy, but all too often not a very big step.

An expert to me is someone the professionals go to when they need advice, have a situation they can't solve, and so forth. I've had shops ask me for help when they've been in a jam; I don't consider myself an expert by any means. In aquatics an expert will most often cover a very narrow, limited portion of aquatics, but will do it extremely well.

All this being said, the folks here are steering you in the right direction, regardless of what you are told by shops, who's main interest is moving product & showing a profit. General aquatics books are often dated, newer information arises which is often not added in a revised edition.

Your best chance of getting current general aquatics information is a forum such as this, as so many situations in more areas of the world than I know of are represented, far more than any shop or author of a book will experience.

 

[Fuego]

The sales staff at most local fish shops are a step above burger guy, but all too often not a very big step.

Thanks for the introduction, Tolak!

As for your comment reposted above, I totally agree with you. I would NOT give my business, for example, to PetSmart or PetCo or any other large "emporium" type pet stores that just happen to be selling fish and hire some minimum-wage high school kid to answer questions.

But I tend to give a little more weight to businesses who've been around since 1967 and whose only two employees -- aside from the owner and his wife -- are two people who've been in the industry for over 20 years. I tend to think they have a little more knowledge than the staff at "most local fish shops".

My last input on this matter Fuego. And I say calmly and quietly I think your tank is doing fine.

I hope you're right. Still haven't had the chance to bring my water in to be tested by the local shop -- in case my API test results for Nitride are somehow faulty -- but I'm beginning to think my tank is doing okay, too.

Good luck! Feel free to post pics of your tank. That's my fav part about the forum.

I plan to, soon!

 

[OldMan47]

You would not rely on the parts counter guy at the local auto parts store to tell you how to rebuild your engine and trusting to that level of expertise, even at a mom and pop LFS is just as chancy. Experienced fish keepers are just that. I have 10 years on Tolak and also take some responsibility at my local fish club but I am really only competent in water care and livebearer care. When it come to other fish or inverts, I am still a babe in the woods. We have tons of experience here among some of the members and lots of short term care experience in many of them. Some will quote what they have heard from others without really understanding why something works while some have real expertise in a narrow subject area. General advice about fish care is quite good on this forum but specialist knowledge depends a lot on the particular area. Some have awesome member knowledge while other subjects have an overwhelming population of novice fish keepers with little more than book knowledge. In this section, Waterdrop is a wizard at new tank cycling and helps people by the dozens. In livebearers, Fish48 is quite knowledgeable and branches out the way I do into rarer livebearers. Both are "ordinary" members who possess extraordinary skill in their own area.

 

[Tolak]

Generally your independent shops are a bit better than your chains, though I've seen ma & pa outfits that are just stuck in a time warp, and chains that get a good aquatics manager or knowledgeable employees that really are outstanding. The biggest issue there is the independent is often loathe to change, while the chain has a much higher employee turnover, at times for better or worse as far as care & knowledge is concerned.

OM47 is right about the scope of knowledge for each individual. Most of my tanks have no substrate, thus no plants. I'd be the last person to ask about live plants, but I do know plenty of folks who could give you excellent advice on this facet of aquatics. Any retailer is no different, they are not going to have in depth knowledge of everything, but will have some general idea of most everything. The worst habit I see them having is the unwillingness to refer a customer to someone with more expertise in a specific area, they will often wing it, giving their take on how they think it should work. This information is often incorrect to some degree or another.