Help a Marine with his Wife's dream ?

[Coops]

Hi there,

I've been keeping Marine Fish for a few years now and recently upgraded to an 8 foot tank. This left me and the wife pondering over the six foot sat in our other lounge.

We figured that the cost of running two marines was just a bit out side our budget (electric lighting / chillier costs alone lol). So she decided she wants to use the 6 foot for Tropical and to have her own hobby.

So... a few starter questions as nether of us have kept Tropical before. ?

I’ve been reading up on her behalf as much as possible, but wondered about some of the kit I use for Marines being any use to her.

She wants small fish, lots of plants. (excuse the expression, but Pretty tank) some of you may understand that whilst marine fish are mostly pretty it takes a long long time to get the tank looking that way.

Water filtration?

I use a 4 stage Ro unit (50 Gallon per day) and wondered if its safe to use this on a Fish / plant set up ? The Ro unit removes just about everything from the water. down to 10 pmm on my TDS meter.

Sump ?

The main tank is 6 Foot by 3 X 3 and has a four foot sump under it. Can I use the sump in much the same way ? (filer wool / carbon etc)

Coral Sand ? The wife would like to "landscape" the tank using fine gravel and also some of my sand. A kind of sandy end to the tank with the rest being staggered back up using gravel. (we bought fine 2-4 mm gravel). The coral sand is one I use for buffering my tank and I wondered if that was a wise idea for a Tropical tank although were only talk a bucket full for decoration ?

Salt ? I cant seem to find a definitive answer to if you "need" ANY salt in a tank ? I realise that some fish prefer a slight salinity, but what about plants? Anyone one got a good guide on salt and plants.

Plants ? I've learnt from past problems with marines that patience is my first rule when it comes to setting up a tank, I'm the one at the LFS going "no we cant have one of those" much to the wife’s annoyance So with tropical's is there a "quick kick start method" or are we looking at a full cycle before allowing fish in the tank.

Also is it "cycle / fish then plants" or is there a specific order.

Lastly Lighting. Obviously the lighting I use on my Marines wont be much good, so can you advise on lighting for a fish / plant set up. Bearing in mind its three foot deep.

Well that’s probably enough to be getting on with. An answer on using coral sand would be a good one and the use of salt, as the sand I have spare for the wife has been "in" a Marine tank for a few months.

Many thanks for any help or assistance.

Paul.

 

[andywg]

OK, First:

Welcome to the forum.

You should find a lot of your marine knowledge passes over quite well.

I'll try and anwer each point in turn.

RO

This will be fine, but for plants and for some fish you will need to add some essential nutrients back to the water (this is available from most lfs). You will probably find that unless you keep ultra fussy fish you will do fine with normal tap water (hell, possibly even the waste from the RO unit) and de-chlorinater. If you are unsure of the water just ask the water company for a samply and post it up here.

Sump

I feel this is the best type of filtration available. However it can prove one problem, and that is with plants. The action of the water going down to the sump and the added surface area means that there is extra oppurtunity for gas exchange. In real terms this normally equates to losing Carbon Dioxide to the atmosphere. However, if you have a marine tank that size then I'm guessing you may dose with CO2, in which case you can dose that into the tropical FW tank (best way would be to feed the CO2 line into the inlet of the sump return pump).

Other ways to try and minimise the gas exchange would be to ensure you have a durso standpipe with the water level in the weir as high as possible and to have the return outlets under the water surface level.

I myself use filter wool as a mechanical filtre and then load the rest of the sumps with Alfagrog. It's cheap and does the biological job really well.

Sand

I would advise against the coral sand as it tends to raise the pH which is generally unwanted in FW (unless you go for some of the rift valley species of cichlids). You can use ordinary sand (my preferred) or if you want good plants then you can use a fertiliser like Flourite mixed with fine gravel which should help the plants grow. You normally look at less than an inch depth without plants and up to around 2" with them.

Salt

Salt is not necessary for Freshwater fish. It can have medicinal uses, but the vast majority of FW fish come from water with no detectable level of salt. Plants do not do fantastically well with salt (I know it is a fair amount, but once the SG is above around 1.005 then nothing much will grow except Mangroves).

My advice, don't use salt. Especially not with any plecs, cories, or scaleless fish.

Plants/Quick cycle

There is a fantastic quick start method known as cloning. If you take filter media from another FW setup (you may be able to get some from your LFS) then you can add some (not a lot) of fish straight away.

If you went super heavy on the planting, then (in theory, I only know one person who has done this; succesfully mind) you can add fish and the plants' uptake of ammonia will prevent any cycle. But the safest way when setting up your first tank is to fishless cycle. There's plenty of info on it in the pinned threads.

Stocking Order

I would say you can put plants in straight away even during the cycle. Once you have ammonia and nitrites down to 0 and have some nitrates then you can start stocking (unless you go for cloning mentioned above).

Lighting

You would be surprised what you can port over from Marine to FW. Mostly it would be a matter of changing bulb temperatures. For FW plants you will want to be in the region of 4K to 7.5K Kelvin.

With a tank 3 feet deep that you want plants in I would say you will need two to three Metal Halides. I would probably go for three 250W MH or 2 400W MH (within the temp ranges above) and if you have any T5 tubes use them to supplement the colour range and provide some areas a little darker than others (especially with just two 400W).

The best thing to do with lightin would be to ask in the planted section as there are some people there that are very good with plant needs. If you did power light the tank like this then you would have to keep an eye on micro and macro nutrients (all the phosphates, potassium, nitrogen etc.) that the plants need. Though with a decent marine background I'm sure you already are used to monitering of a tank.

To finalise, I would be wary of using the sand from the marine tank, especially considering how cheap silver, or play sand is.

And finally, that's one hell of a nice sized tank . I myself would look into larger oddballs (Gars, Arowanas, Bichirs, predatory catfish etc) that could go in there and really make the tank look exciting. Or, if you wanted a great conversational piece, you just throw in a single Mbu Puffer. They get to 2 feet and have the attitude of a puppy.

Anyway, Hope I helped, and don't forget to ask questions.

Andy

 

[Bloo]

WoW anndy nice reply ! saw you reading the thread and then I thought I won't bother answering before seeing what you've said - I suspected you might cover it well I really can't add much of significance to what you've said.

Fab tank Coops ! Best of luck and let us know how it goes

 

[Coops]

OK, First:

Welcome to the forum.

You should find a lot of your marine knowledge passes over quite well.

I'll try and anwer each point in turn.

I've belonged to a few forums in my time, but never had such a concise reply. Thats great and answered everything I was pondering over. I can't thank you enough.

I'll print out and go sit with the Wife and discuss her options.

On the Mbu (as we are puffer lovers) can they exisit with anything else ?

Paul.

 

[andywg]

One thing I forgot to add:

With a tank that size, and with such great plans for it, I would say you must take a large number of pictures for us all to see

And thankyou Bloo, for your kind comments

Andy

 

[keane]

There is a fantastic quick start method known as cloning. If you take filter media from another FW setup (you may be able to get some from your LFS) then you can add some (not a lot) of fish straight away.

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Superb post Andy . (Do you have nothing better to do?? )

The only comment I have is......to clone a 6 x 3 x 3 tank is going to take one hell of a lot of bacteria holding media. More, I would guess, than any LFS would be willing to part with without a fee.

I would go with the fishless cycle. It may take longer but this way you can be sure that, once the cycle is complete, you do have enough bacteria to support the bio load from the number of fish a tank so huge can hold and so can pretty much fully stock it straight away.

I would, in any event, stock it to almost maximum once the cycle has complete.

If you start with just a couple of fish the bacteria you have developed will die off because of a lack of waste to sustinate it. Then, as you add fish over a period of time, you will encounter mini-cycles in your tank as the bacteria growth attempts to catch up with the increase in bio-load.

just a thought.

steve.

 

[andywg]

There is a fantastic quick start method known as cloning.  If you take filter media from another FW setup (you may be able to get some from your LFS) then you can add some (not a lot) of fish straight away.

[snapback]870248[/snapback]​

Superb post Andy . (Do you have nothing better to do?? )

The only comment I have is......to clone a 6 x 3 x 3 tank is going to take one hell of a lot of bacteria holding media. More, I would guess, than any LFS would be willing to part with without a fee.

I would go with the fishless cycle. It may take longer but this way you can be sure that, once the cycle is complete, you do have enough bacteria to support the bio load from the number of fish a tank so huge can hold and so can pretty much fully stock it straight away.

I would, in any event, stock it to almost maximum once the cycle has complete.

If you start with just a couple of fish the bacteria you have developed will die off because of a lack of waste to sustinate it. Then, as you add fish over a period of time, you will encounter mini-cycles in your tank as the bacteria growth attempts to catch up with the increase in bio-load.

just a thought.

steve.

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If you think that post is bad, you should see my topic on schooling/shoaling

You have a valid point on the amount of media needed to fully clone.

The only problem with fishless and then fully stocking is that you would have to be putting a huge amount of flakes or a lot of ammonia into the tank to get the bacteria colony large enough to support a fully stocked 6x3x3 tank. Though I admit you would need a lot of media (but you may get lucky. I over load alfagrog on my tanks to the extent I could probably give up 5-10 kg from my display tank and it wouldn't even flinch so if he lives near me I'll happily help).

I think in this case, if you can be patient, the best bet is to fishless cycle and then to gradually increase the loading.

Any thoughts on the type of fish you wnat to put in there Coops?

 

[Coops]

Gents - thanks for all the help

Where does one find "alfagrog" Ive been looking around and not seen any suppliers ? Im assuming Im loooking for a fair bit

As for Fish..... To be honest this is mostly the wifes project but we are puffer lovers but not sure what else live well with puffers in the tropical world. As in the Marine world Puffers can be some what tempermental about their tank mates

Also if I go for a fishless method what would be your best opinion on starting the cycle off ? I noticed you mentioned adding flake - some mention pure ammonia (think I'm having trouble sourcing that at the moment).

Paul.

 

[Aylana]

I'm not an expert by any means but I would try to get hold of some ammonia to cycle with if at all possible. I started cycling with flake food and it smelled very bad! Even though I switched over to ammonia half way through it still took ages to vacuum all the rotting food out when the cycle was complete.

I'm pretty sure the general rule with all puffers including freshwater is don't keep them with anything you don't want eaten.

Not sure on the alfagrog.

 

[andywg]

Aylana is right, puffers and tank-mates can be very hit and miss, some will tolerate them, some won't. Some will tolerate them for months, even years, and then decide they want some "time alone" and clear out the tank for you.

The general rule is: "Don't put it with a puffer if you don't want it hurt".

However, you could house a fully grown Mbu puffer in there (probably on its own) and everyone who has kept them through to adulthood (around 2 feet long without the caudal fin) says they have a fantastic temprament.

Ammonia is best for fishless cycle, but can be hard to get hold of. With a sump you have the advantage of being able to drop flakes straight in there without them rotting in your display tank.

Alfagrog (I believe it may be called supra in the US) can be sourced on the internet. I know a few stores around me have it, but I'm not sure where you are (or what side of the pond you are).

I tried to find a couple of online stores and found Kockney Koi and Aquarius Koi sell it in the UK.

In the US I found no sites offering the larger bags (I have two 15 kg bags for my two 2 foot sumps and I would still prefer some more in there) but it must be possible to get it. Kockney Koi in the UK whom I linked above offer it by the 15kg bag, or by the 1 ton pallet (2,200 lbs). I would guess that for a fair size 4 foot sump tank (I assume it is a minimum of 40 to 50 gallons) you would want in the region of 30 to 45 kg (66 to 100 lbs).

Hope I helped again.

Andy

 

[Slyspy]

Make sure that you scrub that tank out really well to get rid of residual salt deposits.

Good luck!