happy~?

[maos]

in a book about aquarium fish i have it says for most of the marine fish that there are no records of captive breeding (not sure how old the book is) is this still true for most?

is it therefore that all marine fish are wild caught? do they therefore not breed because theyre not happy? like there are rules on gallons per fish etc but even even if someone had a 12ft tank can one little purple fish (unsure of name) still be happy because it will hit the glass at the other end of the tank and its not used to that?

also, are marine tank waters pretty much exactly the same as the water they originally came from or slightly better/slightly worse?

if marines do breed in captivity do they do better in actual big public aquariums that home tanks?

 

[chkltcow]

Lots of marine fish breed in captivity. It could be that your book is quite old. People breed gobies and all types of clown fish in captivity. One of the biggest names in that is ORA. And I'm pretty sure the only way you can get seahorses is captive bred. I don't believe they allow them to be imported wild caught anymore.

 

[Navarre]

Many of the smaller fish are now sucessfully being catptive bred. However the larger fish are still some way off achieving this. ake for example the tang family. Most tangs are solitary and wont tollerate o thers yet at certain times of the year they will make enormous shoals and graze across the reefs. At a certain time during the moons phase the females will rush for the surface followed closely by a few males nearby , she will release her egges high in the water colum and the males will fertilise them. The eggs are then left to fall back to the sand and find their own way in life. Most get eaten before they reach the sea bed As you can see, this fish makes it practically impossible to breed in captivity. Many of the larger fish just do not show parental care and allow the eggs to fall free leaving their chances to nature. Smaller fish like clowns tend to show some sort of parental care much licke cichlids. These are now being successfully bred as we understand more about their needs.

So the next question raised is this...

Is it ethical to take a wild fish from the ocean and put it in your tank?

A highly contentious quetion i have asked but there are 2 sides of the coin (as always). Taking a wild fish from the ocean can of course be a problem on stock numbers if the collection is not done in moderation. However, what is the life expectancy of many of the young fish (th emarket targets the smaller fish as they are easier to transport). that are found on the reefs? Not very long to be honest, the reef is a harsh world, its eat or be eaten and most fish will never reach adulthood as they themselves will fall prey to larger fish. If you look at it this way then by keeping fish in your home tank could actually prolong their lifespans, food is always present, no fear of being preyed upon etc. Many fish will live far longer than their wild cousins.

We should also think about the knowledge we gain from keeping such creatures. With the event of the internet many hobiests around the world have been able to share their findings and experiences with each other. THis means that in recent years the marine world and its understanding of these fish has increased enormously. THe more we understand our home reefs the better we can provide for them.

 

[Ed4567]

In addition to what Navarre said, most marine fish have at least one larvae stage; during which they require very small, specific sized foods which are a pain to culture, and get the required density of food into the tank.

 

[steelhealr]

Navarre's points are interesting. You know, it blows me away to think that successful marine tanks only became possible in the 80s....correct Navarre? Tanks were being maintained with those bleached white dead corals and undergravel filters. Live rock opened up the world of home reefs along with new technology including skimming, water testing, etc. SH

 

[Navarre]

Yep thats right SH. I can recall the undergravel filters, im actually amazed that people had any lasting success with them. I can still remember when someone produced some of hte 1st liverock at our local fish club many years ago... it cost him £500 for about 3kg of rock!!! and what made it worse was the fact he brought it to the club and it was dry! we simply had no u nderstanding of how it worked and what a huge breakthrough liverock would make.

 

[maos]

They may have a longer lifespan in captivity but would they not be happier having pure swimming space? or do they tend to just hide in one space anyway?

Otherwise wouldn't it be better to be wild and not live long that in a 'small' tank and live longer? I went to a zoo in Florida once and there was some sort of bird that was chained to a tree stump all day with a chain about 2 meters in length at the most. And it was like that for the whole day. Every day. But the zoos excuse was that it will live longer in captivity.

With live rock, does it look like normal rock or is it another word for coral? whenever i go in a fish shop and see rock it ust looks like limestone or something. which i know limestone is found in marine conditions - i study geology at college but we've never refere to it as 'live'

 

[Navarre]

Many marine fish such as clowns, grammas and dwarf angels etc have tiny territories in the wild and theese areas wont be much larger than the average tanksize that people have at home. Larger fish like groupers dont ted to move very far either so again a large marine system is ok IMO. Tangs however do keep territories suc has coral outcrops and they defend these rigourously. Some tangs form massive shoals and they travel miles each day which obviously cannot be reproduced in cativity.
Personally i would look on their keeping as the quality of life they will be offred compared to the real reef. If i can offer them a higher quality of life than they would get on a reef than my consience (sp?) rests easy. A reef is an extremely hostile place for fish, food is very scarce and its a kill or be killed world they live in. We look at the reef as a beautiful place full of wonderment at every turn. If you lived on it you would realise that just about anything that moves (and many things that dont) are equiped to kill, maim and eat you .. and those that arent fast or strong enough to take you down will be opportunists and wait until they have the advantage.

Many fish that are wild caught manage to adjust extremly quickly to captive conditions.

As for liverock, its rock that is porous but has life living on and within it. Bacteria will saturate it through to its very core and many other larger organisms use it as their homes. So the term liverock doesnt mean the rock itself is alive but it is more accurately described as rock with life on/in it.

 

[JJ1234567]

I agree with Navarre, it really does come down to a quality of life issue. Its alot like getting a sheep-herding breed of dog when you live in a Big City Apartment building. Hes not gonna be happy, and in the long run neither are you.

Now my question for Navarre is this: What is the frequency that clowns mate? I plan on getting a pair of the tank bred (ORA) false perculas. Is it possible they would have babies, since they were born in tanks might they have a higher occurance over wild captured ones? If they do have offspring, what do I do then??? I know that is kinda wondering how you can eat the chicken when you dont even have an egg to hatch, but im curious.

 

[Navarre]

OK if you want to breed clownfish then you really should get the following book "Clownfish" by Joyce D Wilkerson. This is the absolute bible on clownfish and their breeding.

From what i have been told, Clownfish will breed every few weeks, here is a piccy of a wild pair of Black and white percs with their eggs.

edit: The eggs can be seen as the red patch just under the anenome.

Unfortunately these fish have never been able to rear their eggs as far as i know because the tank is so huge and it has alot of larger fish that will eat the fry as soon as they are born.
If you are considering breeding clowns thena small tank on teir own is far better. The book mentioned above goes into all aspects of breeding and rearing clowns

 

[JJ1234567]

I wasnt so much sure i wanted to breed clowns, though that could be kinda nifty, I was asking more along the lines what do i do when fish are being fish and having babies. I thought it was hard to get rid of three kittens, what about 100+ babie clowns!! LOL!!! maybe the LFS will trade me for food or another tank or something.

 

[Navarre]

beleive me, if you can breed any marine fish, your local shop will snap them up as fast as you can rear them.

 

[maos]

i feel quite deceived about clown fish. clownfish eat their young - but nemo's mum and dad made out like they loved their babies. and also the fact that nemo's dad looked after nemo all his life.

clownfish sales probably went up 100000% after that film came out. i doubt youll have a problem. lfs sell them at say about £15-25 each - even if you sell them at £3-5 each. multiplied by 100? or if you have another tank with other fish you could use them as food

 

[Chac]

It was only a cartoon and any one that is concidering starting a marine tank MUST do the appropriate level of reasearch before committing to keeping any livestock, and when it comes to purchasing the livestock itself the same goes, you cant just hope for the best without some knowledge of what you are keeping

This hobby take a load of things one being patience, understanding and a large bag of cash

Wouldnt have been a good film If N's parents ate him

 

[Great Lakes]

The quality of life issue is a vast one and can encompass any form of life up to and including ourselves.
In a nutshell, if you are determined to be responsible for a life, you must do just that, be responsible.

You will all have to extrapolate the rest of my thoughts from that statement.

In a moment of acute irony, I have just noticed that my dog is out of water, my cats are out of food, I need to add 10 gals of RO to the tank, and my outside pond is down six inches from all the warm weather.

No joke, it has been a rough week.....
Catch yall tonite when I catch things up...

GL