Guppys With Cardinal Or Neon Tetras

[craigieboy01]

Hi All, Would the above Tetras be ok with Guppys or are they a bit nippy for the Guppys?

 

[lilfishie]

i have had no problems with the two together in the past

 

[SchottayB]

I have a group of 8 Cardinal Tetra with 2 Adult and 4 six month old Guppys. Never had a problem with them

 

[craigieboy01]

Thanks, i thought i read in a previous thread that it wasnt wise to keep them together.

 

[nmonks]

It isn't an ideal combination. Fancy guppies tend to need to be kept warm, otherwise they're prone to things like finrot or the shimmies. Around 28 C suits them best, and that's much too warm for neons, which should be maintained between 22-24 C. On the other hand, while cardinals do well at 28 C, they despise hard water, and hard water is essential for guppies.

In short, all three of these species needs distinct conditions, and mixing them is bound to stress one or other of them. Might work for a few months, maybe a year or two. But if you want your neons or cardinals to live for 5+ years, they need softer water than the guppies.

Guppies are best maintained in warm hard water aquaria where the option of using a little salt is available.

Cheers, Neale

Thanks, i thought i read in a previous thread that it wasnt wise to keep them together.

 

[craigieboy01]

It isn't an ideal combination. Fancy guppies tend to need to be kept warm, otherwise they're prone to things like finrot or the shimmies. Around 28 C suits them best, and that's much too warm for neons, which should be maintained between 22-24 C. On the other hand, while cardinals do well at 28 C, they despise hard water, and hard water is essential for guppies.

In short, all three of these species needs distinct conditions, and mixing them is bound to stress one or other of them. Might work for a few months, maybe a year or two. But if you want your neons or cardinals to live for 5+ years, they need softer water than the guppies.

Guppies are best maintained in warm hard water aquaria where the option of using a little salt is available.

Cheers, Neale

Thanks, i thought i read in a previous thread that it wasnt wise to keep them together.

Hi Neale, Temperature sitting about 26 at the moment, not to sure what you mean about hard water? Is that a higher end Ph? What kind of salt would i be looking for and how much should i be adding? What would be a good companion for my male Guppys that like the same kind of conditions? I only have a 23 litre Fluval Edge so it couldnt be anything big. Thanks Craig

 

[nmonks]

Hardness and pH aren't the same thing. This is a VERY common misunderstanding. Hardness is about the amount of minerals dissolved in the water, either general hardness (which we measure with the GH or dH test kit) or carbonate hardness (i.e., alkalinity, which we measure with a KH test kit). Freshwater aquarists tend to focus on pH because it's relatively easy to understand. It's the stuff you learned at school about acids and bases (sometimes, inaccurately, called "alkalis").

OK, now, hardness affects fish in a variety of ways. General hardness sort of acts like salinity, though far more weakly, and affects the rate at which water is lose from their bodies. Soft water fish experience minimal water loss, while hard water fish experience rather more. If you put soft water fish in hard water, it has to compensate for greater water loss that it is adapted to, while a hard water fish in soft water isn't losing water as quickly as its adapted to. Curiously, soft water fish seem to adapt better to hard water than hard water fish do to soft water. Many South American tetras do reasonably well in hard water, though they won't breed in it. But try to keep hard water livebearers in soft water and you'll be constantly dealing with finrot and fungus.

Carbonate hardness is mostly of concern because it stabilises pH. If you have low carbonate hardness, then between water changes pH will drop. All aquaria experience acidification between water changes. Organic acids from decay build up, and nitrate dissociates into nitric acid, among other things. Carbonate hardness "mops up" this acid, neutralising it, keeping the pH steady. This is why soft water aquaria need to be lightly stocked and depend on regular water changes for stability. Hard water is a blessing in disguise in many ways, because high carbonate hardness ensures steady pH, and this is very healthy for most fish.

The precise pH value is really not all that important at all. What generally matters is that the pH is stable. With that said, the reason people talk about pH so much is that soft water tends to have a pH between about 6 and 7, while hard water tends to have a pH between 7 and 8. Note that a pH below 7 isn't necessarily ideal for fishkeeping, since biological filtration bacteria are most effective around pH 7.5-8, and practically stop working below pH 6. Very soft and acidic aquaria around pH 5-5.5 rely on zeolite and plants for ammonia removal rather than filter bacteria.

If you have moderately hard, slightly basic water you can keep just about everything. Temperature will limit your options, but otherwise soft water and hard water fish will generally coexist well at a general hardness of around 10 degrees dH and a pH of about 7.5. In one of my tanks with water conditions like that I have soft water halfbeaks and hard water livebearers living together and both species breeding away happily.

As for guppies, because they like warm, hard water the best options include other livebearers. Mollies tend to bully guppies, so I'd avoid that pairing. But you could try one of the other livebearers like Limia nigrofasciata, a particular favourite of mine. Glassfish and wrestling halfbeaks would also work well, as would bumblebee gobies, which don't need salt, but neither do they mind it. In fact glassfish, wrestling halfbeaks and Limia species all will tolerate a little salt if you want to use it. I wouldn't add it unless I had to, but if I found my guppies were looking a bit moth-eaten or died for no obvious reasons, adding 2-3 grammes of aquarium salt or marine salt mix per litre of water should pep them up. At that dose you would also treat whitespot and velvet successfully and reduce the risk of fungal infections if the guppies were pecked. Some of the small spiny eels would work well in such a system too, if you have soft sand for burrowing and didn't mind giving the spiny eels the foods they require. A good species would be Macrognathus siamensis, the peacock spiny eel, a sociable species best kept in twos or threes. Among invertebrates, nerites and algae shrimps of all sorts should work well in hard water or very slightly salty conditions.

Cheers, Neale

Hi Neale, Temperature sitting about 26 at the moment, not to sure what you mean about hard water? Is that a higher end Ph? What kind of salt would i be looking for and how much should i be adding? What would be a good companion for my male Guppys that like the same kind of conditions? I only have a 23 litre Fluval Edge so it couldnt be anything big. Thanks Craig

 

[craigieboy01]

Hardness and pH aren't the same thing. This is a VERY common misunderstanding. Hardness is about the amount of minerals dissolved in the water, either general hardness (which we measure with the GH or dH test kit) or carbonate hardness (i.e., alkalinity, which we measure with a KH test kit). Freshwater aquarists tend to focus on pH because it's relatively easy to understand. It's the stuff you learned at school about acids and bases (sometimes, inaccurately, called "alkalis").

OK, now, hardness affects fish in a variety of ways. General hardness sort of acts like salinity, though far more weakly, and affects the rate at which water is lose from their bodies. Soft water fish experience minimal water loss, while hard water fish experience rather more. If you put soft water fish in hard water, it has to compensate for greater water loss that it is adapted to, while a hard water fish in soft water isn't losing water as quickly as its adapted to. Curiously, soft water fish seem to adapt better to hard water than hard water fish do to soft water. Many South American tetras do reasonably well in hard water, though they won't breed in it. But try to keep hard water livebearers in soft water and you'll be constantly dealing with finrot and fungus.

Carbonate hardness is mostly of concern because it stabilises pH. If you have low carbonate hardness, then between water changes pH will drop. All aquaria experience acidification between water changes. Organic acids from decay build up, and nitrate dissociates into nitric acid, among other things. Carbonate hardness "mops up" this acid, neutralising it, keeping the pH steady. This is why soft water aquaria need to be lightly stocked and depend on regular water changes for stability. Hard water is a blessing in disguise in many ways, because high carbonate hardness ensures steady pH, and this is very healthy for most fish.

The precise pH value is really not all that important at all. What generally matters is that the pH is stable. With that said, the reason people talk about pH so much is that soft water tends to have a pH between about 6 and 7, while hard water tends to have a pH between 7 and 8. Note that a pH below 7 isn't necessarily ideal for fishkeeping, since biological filtration bacteria are most effective around pH 7.5-8, and practically stop working below pH 6. Very soft and acidic aquaria around pH 5-5.5 rely on zeolite and plants for ammonia removal rather than filter bacteria.

If you have moderately hard, slightly basic water you can keep just about everything. Temperature will limit your options, but otherwise soft water and hard water fish will generally coexist well at a general hardness of around 10 degrees dH and a pH of about 7.5. In one of my tanks with water conditions like that I have soft water halfbeaks and hard water livebearers living together and both species breeding away happily.

As for guppies, because they like warm, hard water the best options include other livebearers. Mollies tend to bully guppies, so I'd avoid that pairing. But you could try one of the other livebearers like Limia nigrofasciata, a particular favourite of mine. Glassfish and wrestling halfbeaks would also work well, as would bumblebee gobies, which don't need salt, but neither do they mind it. In fact glassfish, wrestling halfbeaks and Limia species all will tolerate a little salt if you want to use it. I wouldn't add it unless I had to, but if I found my guppies were looking a bit moth-eaten or died for no obvious reasons, adding 2-3 grammes of aquarium salt or marine salt mix per litre of water should pep them up. At that dose you would also treat whitespot and velvet successfully and reduce the risk of fungal infections if the guppies were pecked. Some of the small spiny eels would work well in such a system too, if you have soft sand for burrowing and didn't mind giving the spiny eels the foods they require. A good species would be Macrognathus siamensis, the peacock spiny eel, a sociable species best kept in twos or threes. Among invertebrates, nerites and algae shrimps of all sorts should work well in hard water or very slightly salty conditions.

Cheers, Neale

Hi Neale, Temperature sitting about 26 at the moment, not to sure what you mean about hard water? Is that a higher end Ph? What kind of salt would i be looking for and how much should i be adding? What would be a good companion for my male Guppys that like the same kind of conditions? I only have a 23 litre Fluval Edge so it couldnt be anything big. Thanks Craig

Thanks Neale, that clears a few things up, think i will up the temperature a little bit and take it from their. Thanks