Growing Plants With Ferts

[NickDavies]

Hope this is in the right section i wanted my plants to grow in my tank ive seen a lot of tablets online that you can put into the sand near plants to help them grow i didnt want to buy offline due to taking ages so i went to a store and picked up some of this 
http/www.gardenhealth.com/product/grosure-slow-release-plant-food
 
The only problem i can see is that it has 3.8% ammoniacal N  and nitrogen N 12%  when i looked at it i thought ammoniacal was ammonia Is this safe to use on tanks? 

 

[AbbeysDad]

No, no, no. Although some folks report success with terrestrial ferts like that (Osmocote comes to mind) inside gel caps and pushed deep in the substrate, I'm not sure I'd trust them. A slow release terrestrial fert is one thing in garden soil outside, but in the water of the aquarium is very [water] soluble making it short lived and mixing in the water column (not good).
 
For rooted aquatic plants I feel you'd be better off with a root tab intended for aquarium use. I'm having great success with Seachem Flourish Root Tabs. They seem to be very slow dissolving and stay in the sand and the plants are doing very well.
API also markets root tabs. I haven't tried them, but I've heard on forums that they're not as stable/good as the Seachem product.
Good root tabs can be a little pricey, but when you consider the plant investment and fish health....it's worth it.

 

[Byron]

I concur with Michael.  Terrestrial plants require different nutrient combinations than aquatic, and with this product and others like it you will have algae problems and poor plants.  And the elevated nitrate is harmful to fish.
 
Substrate tabs for aquarium plants do help some plants.  I use Seachem's Flourish Tabs.  The API as Michael mentioned have been reported to have issues.  Plants like Amazon swords, Tiger Lotus, and such will benefit from substrate tabs.  A comprehensive liquid fertiliser is necessary for non-substrate plants (floating, Anubias, Fern, Moss, many stem plants).  Assuming you need nutrient supplementation to begin with, otherwise this can cause algae problems too.
 
We will need to know the tank, water and plant data to offer advice on fertilizers.
 
Byron.

 

[NickDavies]

So these tablets would kill the fish? I have just some swords i would like to grow . I dont mind if i plant them and they kill my plants or dont work its the fish im worryied about

 

[Byron]

So these tablets would kill the fish? I have just some swords i would like to grow . I dont mind if i plant them and they kill my plants or dont work its the fish im worryied about

 
This takes some explaining.  Osmocote is high in nitrate and phosphates, two nutrients terrestrial plants need more than aquatic.  Most understand the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite, but nitrate is also toxic.  With nitrate, it is slower to poison the fish, but at high levels and the longer the exposure, it will.  The problem is what is occurring along the way. What all reliable sources do agree on is that nitrates will weaken fish; the higher the nitrate, and/or the longer the fish is exposed, the more detrimental.  Some species show much less tolerance than others.
 
We need to keep in mind that none of the fish species we maintain in aquaria occur in natural habitats with nitrate much above zero, or 1 ppm.  So if the fish functions well with zero nitrates, it stands to reason that the higher the nitrates the more the fish's physiology and metabolism will be affected.  This acts much like any form of stress, weakening the immune system, making it harder for the fish to carry out its basic life functions, and so forth.  So keeping nitrates like stress as low as possible will inevitably mean healthier fish.
 
High nitrates and phosphates also cause problem algae, and with live plants this can be defeating.  The algae coating plant leaves will slowly starve the plant.  There is only one safe and effective way to deal with problem algae, and that is to prevent it by maintaining a balance of light/nutrients suitable for the plant species.
 
Byron.

 

[NickDavies]

My friend is using this

seems to be working really good  if you check it has double the nitrate than my tablets here is mine
 

 
Ive seen his tank with the top one and fish seem fine  the bottom one is mine is there anything really bad in there??

 

[Byron]

Everything in both is "bad" in a sense.  The point is that these are terrestrial plant fertilizers and aquatic plants have different needs.  And the levels of some of the nutrients are far greater than what aquarium plants require.  And these will affect fish.
 
I can guarantee you will have problems using these products.

 

[NickDavies]

Everything in both is "bad" in a sense.  The point is that these are terrestrial plant fertilizers and aquatic plants have different needs.  And the levels of some of the nutrients are far greater than what aquarium plants require.  And these will affect fish.
 
I can guarantee you will have problems using these products.

Ok thats what i needed thank you very much for getting back to me its 1am here so thank you again

 

[AbbeysDad]

I've been an organic vegetable gardener for the past 30 years. My garden is 3000 sq. ft.! I do not use chemical fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, or fungicides. I enrich the soil organically. I don't have livestock for manure so I use fall leaves, grass clippings, compost, vermicompost, green manures....etc.
 
Uneaten fish food, fish and plant waste all decays into organic fertilizer for the plants.
I believe that with the right bio-load and plant mass, we should be able to manage a planted tank organically or nearly organically considering the inert substrate. In any case, I feel that adding minimum chemicals just has to be better for our fish.
 
Looking at the numbers and considering that it's water soluble, one would think with the right dilution, the miracle grow 'could' work.....
 
However: http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fertilizers_intro.php
 
Some people have asked about using common household fertilizers like miracle-gro in their planted aquarium. This is a bad idea, since most terrestial plant fertilziers contain high levels of phosphates. In additon, many of them contain their nitrogen in the form of urea, which is essentially ammonia. And in a tank that contains fish, urea or ammonia is toxic. I've tested miracle-grow in an uninhabited 10g tank, and adding just 5ml of the liquid to the 10g resulting in ammonia levels off the chart for my ammonia test. The same hold true for many hydroponics fertilziers. I would suggest that you never add any fertilziers to your tank unless you are sure you know what it contains.

 

[StevenF]

There are multiple issues with terrestrial fertilizers"
1)  They are designed to slowly dissolve in soil.  In the tank they will likely dissolve faster than the manufacture intended.  This can result in a nutrient surge that can cause an alge bloom and possibly stress or harm your fish.
2)  Some may contain nitrogen, phosphate, and copper at levels that can kill fish and shrimp.
3)  Many terrestrial fertilizers Don't have all the trace nutrients plants need.  This is fine for a potted plant because the soil will typically have those nutrients.   However in an aquarium soft water can easily leach out most nutrients resulting in deficiencies and possibly an algae bloom.
 
For aquariums fertilizer must be applied at a level that won't harm fish and all required nutrients must be present.  Those requirements don't apply to terrestrial plant fertilizers.  Seachem has done a good job with Flourish comprehensive fertilizer.  The taps are however designed to be installed in the soil, release it nutrients slowly and as a result have different amounts of nutrients to do the job .   Other aquarium fertilizer manufactures have not done as well and often sell product missing one or more nutrients or have too much or not enough nutrients for aquariums.

 

[mark4785]

And the elevated nitrate is harmful to fish.
 
 
Byron.

 
 
Evidence please? Nitrate is a fertiliser, not a toxin. Nitrate levels exceeding 70 ppm are fine and don't cause issues (from practical experience).

 

[Byron]

 

And the elevated nitrate is harmful to fish.
 
 
Byron.

 
 
Evidence please? Nitrate is a fertiliser, not a toxin. Nitrate levels exceeding 70 ppm are fine and don't cause issues (from practical experience).
 

 
Your "practical experience" doesn't agree with scientific evidence, and I would suggest may be flawed in some way.
 
Nitrate is a form of nitrogen, and like ammonia and nitrite, is toxic to fish.  Ammonia and nitrite poison fish very quickly compared to nitrate, which according to the evidence takes longer though it depends upon the level and the time the fish is exposed.  Some species react more slowly than others, but in the final analysis nitrate like ammonia and nitrite, and indeed any form of nitrogen, is a toxin.  Obviously it is an essential ingredient to life, but like so many, it can easily become toxic.
 
Ammonia and nitrite are also "fertilisers" in the sense you appear to be using the word, as there is evidence that plants can take up all three forms (ammonia/ammonium, nitrite and nitrate).  However, ammonium is the form of nitrogen most aquatic plants prefer.
 
Reliable sources today advocate keeping nitrates as low as possible, and 20 ppm is the limit most mention.  Fish reaction to nitrate is difficult to observe, as it takes quite high levels to poison most fish in a similar way to ammonia and nitrite.  The nitrate weakens the fish, generally, much the same as any form of stress on their system.  So long-term, the immune system weakens, the homeostasis requires more energy and effort to maintain, and there is now suggestions that some diseases such as Hole in the Head and Malawi Bloat may be caused by nitrates as much as by other factors.
 
There are some scientific papers on nitrate toxicity, here's one:
http/www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/tmdl/records/region_2/2008/ref2426.pdf
 
Most of these deal not with aquarium-type fish but more with commercial fish, for obvious reasons.  But the evidence of nitrate as a toxin cannot be denied or even questioned.  The problem in the hobby is that we have no data that can be more specific than the obvious deductions that nitrate like ammonia and nitrite is toxic to fish, that the fish directly succumb (= death) quicker to higher levels or over longer periods and this does vary some by species, and that fish are slowly weakened at the very least to nitrate, again depending upon the level and time period.  This is not surprising, when we realise that the waters from which all our aquarium fish originate are so low in nitrate it is usually zero or very close to zero.
 
Neale Monks has written several articles on this, and I have discussed nitrate with him personally.

 

[AbbeysDad]

 

And the elevated nitrate is harmful to fish.
 
 
Byron.

 
 
Evidence please? Nitrate is a fertiliser, not a toxin. Nitrate levels exceeding 70 ppm are fine and don't cause issues (from practical experience).
 

 
This is not unlike so many myths or misconceptions in the hobby. Like the one where you need to have 4x to 10x GPH flow for good filtration. When in fact, good filtration is about how well we filter water, not how much water we push through a filter. I've consistently maintained crystal clear water with 2x GPH through the filter.
 
In another forum I recall a member that claimed that he knew high nitrates were not a problem because he has high nitrates in his tank and he's had multiple generations of fish...not realizing that his fish that lived a year or less might otherwise have lived many years.
 
The most compelling reason to get and keep nitrates low is (as Byron mentioned) that they are so low in nature where these fish originate, they cannot be measured. We are fortunate that the aerobic bacteria (nitrosomonas & nitrospira) convert Ammonia into nitrates, Unfortunately culturing the anaerobic bacteria to convert nitrates into harmless nitrogen gas and complete the N2 process is very difficult in the FW tank. It's up to us with plants, and/or chemical filtration, and/or partial water changes to get and keep nitrates low.