Goldfish With Lumps Problem

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Long time no see everyone .

Basically, quite recently i noticed that one of my goldfish looked rather bloated. But it was a very strange type of bloating with both sides of the goldfish looking unevenly bloated. Unsure of what action to take next (at the time i thought it could be constipation or dropsy) i cut back on feeding the goldfish and fed them a pretty much veg only diet (algae wafers & some cucumber etc) just to make sure that it wasn't constipation (my worst fears were that it was dropsy).

However over the following couple of days the uneven bloated sides of the goldfish rose into one primary lump on each side and i started to suspect that the goldfish may be developing tumors or some sort of internal bacterial infection. The next day a growth erupted out of the largest lump on one of the goldfishes sides (it was pale pink in color, very slightly fluffy but not in a body fungus or columnaris kind of way. A few of the scales are missing around the growth). Today i have done a water change and treated the tank with anti internal & external bacterial medication ("Anti internal bacteria" by Interpet and some Pimafix as well) and StressCoat, so i will see how that goes.

As for the conditions of the tank water quality conditions are as perfect as always (0 ammonia & nitrates, 16 nitrates, more or less neutral ph) and it is a mature 125gallon tank containing some other goldfish & a pleco (the tank is not overstocked and it also has very good filtration) which have been tank mates for about a year and are totally peaceful with each other. So i'm kinda miffed as to why this fish has fallen sick of a sudden as the tank & fish have been a perfect bill of health for a year now.

Anyways, right now i am not decided whether the fish has a bacterial infection or tumors (or something else altogether), what do you think? I cannot get pictures of the fish right this moment but i will try to later.

 

[aquila]

How long did it take between you noticing a slight lump and the growth erupting? From what you've written it seems like a matter of days which just seems too short of a time period for a standard tumour. It's always possible, of course, and goldfish tumours tend to progress quite quickly, but I'd be leaning towards an infection at the moment. Would be a kick in the teeth as your tank parameters are perfect but it's always possible!

Is the fish large enough and quiet enough for you to handle it gently? I'd be curious to know if the lumps are hard or soft to the touch. Pictures would be really useful.

What kind of goldfish is it? Is it very short-bodied? I've known of very short-bodied, compressed fish having a sort of intestinal cyst which was quite unpleasant.

Finally, do you have a sympathetic vet? I'm lucky enough to have an exotics specialist near me who will treat fish but my local small animal surgery have also provided fish-safe antibiotics in the past, although the poor vet was terrified of injecting the fish! Surgery is always possible if the lumps are benign.

 

[black angel]

my first inclination is a bacterial infection of the kidneys as its both sides. As for cure.. no idea

or

infection of the ova sacs in female fish..

try and catch the fish and see if the lumps are hard or soft and easily moved around or seem to be attached to something

any other outward sign such as the fins having blotches or red vent?

 

[black angel]

think we can rule out the kidney as a source of infection as you say its in the abdomen..so that leaves swim bladder, spleen or liver.

a vet i think is your only option for diagnosis really.

do you know if its a male or female?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

How long did it take between you noticing a slight lump and the growth erupting? From what you've written it seems like a matter of days which just seems too short of a time period for a standard tumour. It's always possible, of course, and goldfish tumours tend to progress quite quickly, but I'd be leaning towards an infection at the moment. Would be a kick in the teeth as your tank parameters are perfect but it's always possible!

Is the fish large enough and quiet enough for you to handle it gently? I'd be curious to know if the lumps are hard or soft to the touch. Pictures would be really useful.

What kind of goldfish is it? Is it very short-bodied? I've known of very short-bodied, compressed fish having a sort of intestinal cyst which was quite unpleasant.

Finally, do you have a sympathetic vet? I'm lucky enough to have an exotics specialist near me who will treat fish but my local small animal surgery have also provided fish-safe antibiotics in the past, although the poor vet was terrified of injecting the fish! Surgery is always possible if the lumps are benign.

Hm its taken about 5days or so for the symptoms to appear. Before that the goldfish looked off color for a while, in that while it looked absolutely healthy it spent a fair amount of time hanging about on its own (but always raced to the front of the tank to see me whenever i came to feed the fish and acted absolutely normally when feeding, like nothing was wrong with it etc).

Variety-wise its a young sarassa comet goldfish (its about 4-4.5inches long) and has 3 other siblings in the tank which are so far all fine.

When it comes to vets, unfortunately none of the vets at my local veterinary clinic are very knowledgeable on fish- a few years ago i had a common plec with a bad case of internal parasites and the only place i was able to get hold of effective anti internal parasite medication was from the vet, however when i asked if i could have some the "fish expert" vet guy had no idea on what the medication was and had to do 2 days of research before i was finally allowed some of the medication (unfortunately after being medicated the pleco ended up dying anyway). I'm not sure if the vet has the expertise to perform fish surgery although i will ask.

I've taken some pictures of the fish today although unfortunately my camera battery has run out so i will have to recharge the batteries before i can post any pictures up- i will see if i can draw a picture of the fish and its symptoms for the time being .

think we can rule out the kidney as a source of infection as you say its in the abdomen..so that leaves swim bladder, spleen or liver.

a vet i think is your only option for diagnosis really.

do you know if its a male or female?

I'm not sure if its male or female as its still pretty young although so far i suspect its a male based on its body shape- i'm a little aprehensive about catching it to take a closer look at it as it don't want to cause it any damage or unnecessary stress from handling it, however if you think it is definitely worthwhile inspecting it/handling it close up i will do this.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Here's a sketch i have just done of of the affected goldfish in question to help give you a picture of the problem while my camera is recharging;

As you can see both sides of the fish are bloated however they are bloated unevenly- the side which has the growth on is slightly less raised than the side which doesn't yet have a growth (although i fear that given time this side may also erupt a growth).

 

[black angel]

looks like it may be the liver which is prone to tumours and fast growing ones too. the opening of the skin is probably more to do with the size of lump and it pushing its way out, but in case this is fluid filled maybe best to isolate the fish so the others dont take in any bacteria.
I think youre doing the right thing med wise as tumours cant be cured and if bacterial then this may help it, although injections of antibiotics would be needed.
Hard solid lumps are more often tumours and soft squishy easy to manipulate ones are usually pus filled bacterial.
Im more in favour of tumours as they are the commonest cause of lumps appearing, even fast growing ones.
sorry tokis but I dont see a favourable outcome to this one.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

looks like it may be the liver which is prone to tumours and fast growing ones too. the opening of the skin is probably more to do with the size of lump and it pushing its way out, but in case this is fluid filled maybe best to isolate the fish so the others dont take in any bacteria.
I think youre doing the right thing med wise as tumours cant be cured and if bacterial then this may help it, although injections of antibiotics would be needed.
Hard solid lumps are more often tumours and soft squishy easy to manipulate ones are usually pus filled bacterial.
Im more in favour of tumours as they are the commonest cause of lumps appearing, even fast growing ones.
sorry tokis but I dont see a favourable outcome to this one.

I think you are right, it does seem that its most likely that the goldfish has tumors. Today it is looking even worse, 2 more growths have erupted out of the other side (one looks quite sore) and both of its sides are continuing to bloat out even more and look increasingly lumpy...I think that if it doesn't show any improvement over the next few days i may euthanize it (i think this is probably what is going to happen, since its symptoms are continuing to worsen at such a quite rate). What would be the best way to euthanize a fish of its size?
I'm afraid it is probably too late to seek veterinary help now as the fishes symptoms have progressed so quickly.

 

[black angel]

For a fish your size I really would recommend a vet to euthenize. If you tried any other method it may cause stress not only to the fish but to you if it wasnt over quick enough.
Sorry I cant help more with a 100% diagnosis Tokis.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

For a fish your size I really would recommend a vet to euthenize. If you tried any other method it may cause stress not only to the fish but to you if it wasnt over quick enough.
Sorry I cant help more with a 100% diagnosis Tokis.

I will contact the vets on monday then and discuss options of euthanasia with them, i think the goldfish will be lucky if it lives for a few more weeks with the way it is going (even if it had puss filled cyst under the skin, i think it would probably cause it far too much stress to inject the fish with antibiotics on a daily basis. I don't think its really large/mature enough to handle such an ordeal). Although it is not at deaths door yet, i think it must be in a fair amount of pain/discomfort right now (it spends all its time sitting alone in a bogwood cave and only comes out for feeding time right now- everyday it takes a bit longer to come out to feed) and its chances of recovering seem very slim right now (if the tumors continue to grow at the rate they are growing, they will start to put too much pressure on vital organs etc).
Thank you for all your help so far, i really appreciate it .

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Ok this is freaking me out a bit now. I just took a look at the goldfishes tank and the sick goldfishes symptoms have changed quite dramatically! The original growth that was erupting out of one side of the fish has receded a bit, and the two new growths which erupted the other day have changed- one has a tube of white stuff coming out ! Is this some sort of gruesome infection?!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Ok today there is both good news and bad news. The good news is that the sick goldfish is looking a little better today- the original growth has gone down some more, the white tube on the other growth has come off (although the third growth is looking very swollen/sore) and for the first time in ages the fish is swimming around like normal with the other fish (instead of only getting up to come feed at feeding times). The bad news is that one of its siblings is looking bloated (again, mostly on side) and is deteriorating quite quickly (i found it lodged under some bogwood this morning)- due to its poor condition i've put it in a net suspended in the tank with a cover over the top for shade so that the plec doesn't decide to eat it alive. I really do think now that this is a bacterial infection of some sort i'm dealing with here- i'm still treating the tank with anti bacterial meds.
"Sigh"...So much stress & worry with these fish .

 

[black angel]

probably then an aeromonas bacterial infection and the stuff coming out will be filled with it and transfer to the other fish. all you can do is keep the fish seperated and treat with anti bacterial. cant rule out columnaris either.. both are gram negative bacteria.
white edged wounds with red centre are aeromonas
red edged with white centre are columnaris based.


treatment i dont really know about but the one i see most often cited is TMP4

treating as well each fish is essential and to keep them moving from one clean source of water to another.

maybe if you can set up two large buckets or tanks or holding vats and salt them to .1% which is 1 level teaspoon of aquarium salt per gallon and switch them between buckets each day. Its vital though you keep them in as much clean water as you can.

as for the one thats now sick, isolate and rotate if it too has its skin opening.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

probably then an aeromonas bacterial infection and the stuff coming out will be filled with it and transfer to the other fish. all you can do is keep the fish seperated and treat with anti bacterial. cant rule out columnaris either.. both are gram negative bacteria.
white edged wounds with red centre are aeromonas
red edged with white centre are columnaris based.


treatment i dont really know about but the one i see most often cited is TMP4

treating as well each fish is essential and to keep them moving from one clean source of water to another.

maybe if you can set up two large buckets or tanks or holding vats and salt them to .1% which is 1 level teaspoon of aquarium salt per gallon and switch them between buckets each day. Its vital though you keep them in as much clean water as you can.

as for the one thats now sick, isolate and rotate if it too has its skin opening.

The growths on the first fish are not edged with either white or red, they just look generally flesh colored- there is one growth on one side (this is the first growth) and two growths on the other side of the fish (these are the second two growths, which appeared one after the other). The first growth has receded a bit and is paler in color than what it was before, it now looks a lot like this;

http/www.nishikigoi-info.com/koi-health/aeromonas.html

The other two growths are darker in color (one is redder looking that the other, but is not blood red in color) and appear to be pushing out from under the scales, causing a fair amount of swelling. The white tube which appeared yesterday came out of the second growth and has now dropped off, the third growth hasn't yet had any white stuff come out of it yet and is looking the most sore & swollen out of all 3 growths.

The second goldfish is bloated down one side (giving the fish the appearance that is half affected by dropsy, except the scales have not pine-coned) and has a small graze on its bloated side, but i think this was probably caused when it got trapped under the bogwood (which i suspect happened because it was sick).

I have spare tanks however none of them have been used for about 2-3years+ and i think the silicone has dried out in them so are probably not safe to put the fish in. I do have 2 10litre buckets though and spare filters (and mature filter media which i can put in them) with 200litres of filtering power so i will move the two sick goldfish into these two buckets.

I take it by aquarium salt you are talking about marine salt and not that tonic salt stuff sold for fish? I've never used marine salt before but i will see if i can get hold of some tomorrow. I will also see if i can get hold of a large vat to put the fish in. I've never heard of TMP4, where might i be able to get hold of some? All i have right this moment to treat the fish with is "anti internal bacteria" by Interpet, some StressCoat and Pimafix, will this be any good for treating the fish with for the time being?

Thank you for all your help so far, i really appreciate it .

 

[black angel]

any salt is ok even pickling... so marine if you want or tonic..whichever is cheaper and easier to get hold of. as for the meds..uk is appalling for treating fish over the counter...most meds are just so weak. internal antibiotic food is what you really need and rommet B I think can be gotten hold of through vets, though this might only be for the US....sighs...so youll have to keep going with interpet. potassium permanganate from chemists may help or from internet..this is a paste that you put on the wound..but you must wear gloves.
just keeping my fingers crossed for you that the ones with sores you can treat... as for those with internal infections, theres really not much you can do but wait and keep the water fresh for them.
finding the cause too is another thing...