Goldfish In With Tropical Fish

[fishguy2727]

Goldfish are all the same species, Carassius auratus, but there are MANY breeds. The wild and introduced varieties will be long-bodied with natural coloration (dark). The wild type is a long-bodied, short-finned, dark olive color. You may find these in with feeder goldfish. The introduced populations could be more colorful, but most likely almost all dark colors (natural selection will remove those brightly colored individuals and offspring pretty quickly).

For the record fancy varieties cannot tolerate the same temp range that long-bodieds can. The fancier they are the more sensitive they are. They cannot go as cool or as warm as more natural varieties.

 

[Caprichoso]

Goldfish are all the same species, Carassius auratus, but there are MANY breeds. The wild and introduced varieties will be long-bodied with natural coloration (dark). The wild type is a long-bodied, short-finned, dark olive color. You may find these in with feeder goldfish. The introduced populations could be more colorful, but most likely almost all dark colors (natural selection will remove those brightly colored individuals and offspring pretty quickly).

For the record fancy varieties cannot tolerate the same temp range that long-bodieds can. The fancier they are the more sensitive they are. They cannot go as cool or as warm as more natural varieties.

Looks like that explains it. They have fancy goldfish so that may explain the bacterial issue. Thanks for the info!

 

[raptorrex]

Ditto. Care to share where you are getting this info? Did you not read the facts in my last post? Did you not view the video of goldfish breeding in the same tank as discus?

I have never seen anything to support the idea that goldfish will suffer and can't even get enough to eat to prevent losing weight at higher temps.

Their waste is no more than the same size cichlid's.

I am a Biologist, it does not make sense to assume these things with absolutely no factual support. It makes sense that an animal that lives in the tropics in the wild can live in tropical temps in captivity. It does NOT make biological sense that a fish that can thrive in the tropics in the wild can't thrive in the same conditions in captivity.

"as well as the veracity of the sources." What does this mean?

you are getting caught up in the Tropical, Temperate trap;
just because a fish is native to a tropical area. does not mean it lives (mainly) at, what we would call , Tropical temperatures. unless you assume that all waters, in that area, have the same temperature range. which they have not.

this speaks to you comments of "It does not make Biological sense". in fact it does make sense, because all tropical water are not 70-80+ some are as low as any rivers in the UK. but they are still in the tropics.
this fact should need no "scientific" proof. because it should be common sense.

as for the increase in metabolism, that's basic Biology too. the extent to which this has an effect, can be argued (actually it cant, as there is a formula for working it out, accurately)..how hypoxia affects the metabolism of all fish, is well published
this also effects the nutrition of the fish as the temp has an effect on how the fish distributes its energy after food digestion. and therfore the development of the fish.

this is, in effect, an inability to build (enough of anyway) certain body sustaining or building blocks. both in musculature and cartilage (bones)

so more food, but less of the needs of the body being met. which leads to a circle. you need to feed more, just to stand still. more food, means more waste. which means a bigger tank, filter and water changes.

Oxford English dictionary will help with this.

" veracity of the sources." What does this mean?]

and though i didn't give a link, i did mention one of my sources in the post.

 

[StandbySetting]

this fact should need no "scientific" proof. because it should be common sense.

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That's the craziest thing I have ever read, it's not even valid, if you're right then back it up with some scientific evidence be it a journal or paper. There's no denying an increase in metabolism, but an increase so great that it can't maintain it's own body is just crazy.

 

[mark1973]

I have 2 goldfish, a Comet and a Wakin. I want more space for them, but I can't setup a bigger tank. Can I put them in with my tropical fish? It's summer and my goldfish bowl(1 GALLON. I'm such a bad fish keeper, I know!!!!!!!!)is 80*F. I saw that goldfish get used to higher temps when the changes happen slowly. My tropical aquarium is usually around the same, usually lower(!!!!!) Can I mix them together, I saw a restaurant did, and they looked fine. I'll setup a 30 gallon and move them in there 2 weeks after setup. It should be ready in 1+a half months. Is this okay? The Comet is 3.5 inches, and not fat. The Wakin, 3 inches, and not fat. I've had them for 4 months. They were aquarium bred. Is this okay to have them mixed?

No, don't mix goldfish and tropicals. They have such different needs it wouldn't be fair to either. Then again, keeping them in a 1 gallon bowl is torture. What kind of tropical fish do you have, and what size tank? This will make a big difference in the advice you get.

a 1 gallon tank, thats just cruelty, you shudnt be allowed to keep fish, dont know where you get your facts from ,but im sure its not true, rip fish

 

[raptorrex]

this fact should need no "scientific" proof. because it should be common sense.

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That's the craziest thing I have ever read, it's not even valid, if you're right then back it up with some scientific evidence be it a journal or paper. There's no denying an increase in metabolism, but an increase so great that it can't maintain it's own body is just crazy.

of cource it sounds crazy, in the context you state, but that was not the context it was made in. that quote had noting to do with Goldfish nutrition. it was made about the variance in temperature, in tropical areas.

there is no SINGLE link. as far as i can find. but hundreds of papers dealing with the varied effects on higher, and lower temperatures, on carp and other fish.

 

[StandbySetting]

For the benefit of everyone here, share these sources please.

 

[fishguy2727]

You have yet to cite anything factual. You simply state that things are a certain way and this is known due to common knowledge. I am a Biologist. I know common scientific knowledge. What you are saying is not scientific or supported by any facts I am aware of.

By your assumption some of the tropical fish we keep should be just as healthy in the 60s as the upper 70s because not all tropical areas are tropical.

Please do more research, or cite what you have done. Goldfish are native to Laos. I haven't been there but I am going to take a wild guess that no one there would consider it or its waters anything less than tropical. We are not talking about high altitude mountain streams that happen to be in low latitude regions. We are talking the exact same major freshwater ecosystems that all of our accepted as tropical fish come from. If we consider them to be tropical we have to accept that goldfish, thriving in the same river systems, are also or at least can be tropical.

Please support your ideas about them simply wasting away at higher temps. I guess our definition of wasting away differ, mine doesn't include breeding in the same tank as discus.

Yes, hypoxia is bad. But that doesn't mean that any tank with tropical temps is hypoxic. Keep in mind the temp difference we are talking about. Most room temp tanks (goldfish) are 70-74F while most tropical tanks are 78-82F, that is a difference of only eight degrees. You think this difference will cause this unsupported severe wasting condition you hypothesize?

"veracity of the sources", what sources are you referring to?

 

[Ludwig Venter]

I appreciate that you two having the main debate in this topic keep the topic at a discussion level (each stating their point and allowing the other to respond) without mudslinging or defamation..... Good for the both of you...... I trust that the others making a contributionary statement will also do so in this quintessance.....

Personally, I see essence in all theories made so far and not siding left or right..... My experience is (as I've mentioned before in this thread)..... that goldfish can be kept cheerfully with tropicals if they are compatable fish and there is ample space..... Somewhere on the forum, I had a topic going about "My Grand old lady" which was about a 19yr old Commet Goldfish, which spent most of her life in and out of tropical ponds and tanks.....

 

[fishman1908]

You may wish to read this HERE.


Robin

 

[Fishy friend2]

Thanks for the link

 

[StandbySetting]

The article by Nathan Hill even states that there are no scientific reasons as to why they can't be kept together, I wonder where Raptorex has gone, I was anticipating his response.

 

[fishman1908]

Personally I wouldn't mix or advise to mix because "coldwater" fish are temperate fish and are not looking for constant warm tropical water conditions and as temperate fish require more oxygenation and better filtration due to excreting far more ammonia than trops, hence the ratio of fish for "coldwater" is substantially different to that of trops, then a dual set-up would be less stable when mixed IMO.

I think competition for food, potential growth and territories could also be an issue.

Keep it simple or buy 2 tanks.

Robin

 

[fishguy2727]

Exactly.

I think this has all shown that it is well supported with scientific evidence that goldfish are not the 'coldwater' fish that everyone pegs them as being. Yes, they can tolerate cooler temps much better than other tropical fish, but even their natural range (not even looking at their massive introduced range) includes tropical conditions. Repeated hobbyist observations supports this, as does their introduced range.

This does not mean they should be tossed in with tropical fish though. Many tropical fish are too aggressive and will harm the goldfish, or are too small and will be eaten by them. Compatibility is also dependent on the type of goldfish.

I keep my fancies at room temp with live plants, bristlenose plecos, platies, assorted danios, and few select other fish. In most cases there isn't a need to keep them at tropical temps (higher than room temp), but they can handle it better than most people realize.

A simple search on fishbase.org and other actual scientific facts can allow us to move past the over-regurgitated myth of goldfish being true coldwater fish.

They aren't coldwater fish. They do not produce any more waste than the same biomass of tropical fish at the same temp. If you have problems providing enough aeration for them you have too little to begin with, a difference of six degrees or so shouldn't put them over the edge.

 

[fishguy2727]

They aren't coldwater fish. They do not produce any more waste than the same biomass of tropical fish at the same temp. If you have problems providing enough aeration for them you have too little to begin with, a difference of six degrees or so shouldn't put them over the edge.