Getting a Pirhana...help!!

[Squimps]

most responsible owners of carnivorous fish will only feed live feeders if their fish can't be fed anything else

There are obviously differences of opinions here but I personally don't view myself as an irresponsible for feeding my fish live brine shrimp or earthworms and I don't think that I will be able to convince Anna otherwise.

Anna are you a vegan? If not, I consider your statements a bit hypocritical since we humans are able to survive on an entire diet of vegetables if we so choose. If you consume any form of meat or animal products then your argument looses some merit with me. Besides, where do you think most flake food comes from? It comes from little fishies(along with other stuff) put into a paste grinder at the fish food factory. Is that any less cruel than the natural order of prey and predator?

 

[AquaNut]

I don't really understand why it's responsible to take fish who are supposed to be living in large, spacious waterways and put them into miniscule glass prison cells for our own personal enjoyment, but it's irresponsible to feed them, even occasionally, what would comprise a large part of their natural diet. People keep different fish for different reasons. Lots of people would not be in any way interested in keeping a lovely and peaceful community tank where everyone co-exists in perfect harmony, dully swimming back and forth in their nicely arranged shoals of odd numbered fish. Many, MANY experienced and responsible fish keepers prefer to keep aggressive fish because they enjoy watching their predatory and territorial behaviour. I'm sure that had he known the way you were going to react to his statement, marshmallow would have phrased himself differently.

I don't have any really nasty fish; mine are all freshwater community inhabitants. However, I rather enjoy watching the territorial behaviour of my two opaline gouramis. I think it's fascinating to watch. They're of equal size and never do anything that would even come close to harming one another. They also both have adequate territory to claim in the tank they share. However, they definitely don't just float around in peaceful harmony 24/7. I am so opposite of violent or aggressive, it's practically a joke, but I find their behaviour absolutely riveting.

I also often feed live bearer fry to my other fish. I can't, for the life of me, figure out how it's okay to let the females give birth in the guppy tank and let all the adult guppies eat the fry, but it's sick and wrong to feed those same fry to other fish in other tanks. I also don't know why it's okay to feed your fish live worms and mosquito larvae, but not guppy fry that haven't even straightened out their little bodies yet. I'm no scientist, but surely those guppy fry don't have much more in the brain and nerve department than a worm does.

There's no need to treat somebody like a barbarian for wanting to observe the natural, predatory behaviour of fish.

 

[AquaNut]

Why on earth is it okay to feed your fish frozen feeder fish but not live ones? I'm baffled by that reasoning.

 

[smb]

I agree Aquanut. I have only kept aggressive fish and probably always only will except maybe 1 community tank. I like the way they stalk their prey and the way they act and just their mannerisms in general. To me at least, they are so much like a pet, except most of the pirhanas I had but the cichlids are like that.
I don't like to talk about it much here because I don't want to have to defend myself so I just let it go and say to each their own.

I do want to say that live fish should never be the main diet of most fish unless they are strictly piscavores. I mainly only keep cichlids because of how mean they are and that's what I like about fish. I can't get into community fish at all really. This is jmo and no offense is meant at all and I realize we all keep fish for dif reasons and that's great.

BUT, I only feed them fish 3-4 times a month. They do eat them in the wild but the main diet they get from me is shrimp, carotene-based products, earthworms, pellets, flakes, peas etc. as it makes them a lot healthier to feed them a vegetable based diet and fish have about zero nutritional value.

You should always have a quarantine tank to put them in if you don't breed the feeders yourself. It's just asking for trouble if you throw them right in your show tank from the lfs. Also, feed the feeders good quality food. You are what you eat might apply here for your fish.

I can also understand why people don't agree with the feeding of live fish. They make good points and I respect them for that and that's why I don't go around talking about it..out of respect for the people it bothers.

I just wanted to reply here with a couple facts incase people reading this wanted to go with an all-fish diet for omnivours is all.

Now, that I've said I feed live fish, I am going to go back to lurking about this subject again.

 

[Alien Anna]

most responsible owners of carnivorous fish will only feed live feeders if their fish can't be fed anything else

There are obviously differences of opinions here but I personally don't view myself as an irresponsible for feeding my fish live brine shrimp or earthworms and I don't think that I will be able to convince Anna otherwise.

Anna are you a vegan? If not, I consider your statements a bit hypocritical since we humans are able to survive on an entire diet of vegetables if we so choose. If you consume any form of meat or animal products then your argument looses some merit with me. Besides, where do you think most flake food comes from? It comes from little fishies(along with other stuff) put into a paste grinder at the fish food factory. Is that any less cruel than the natural order of prey and predator?

I'm not even a vegetarian, and I do eat fish (although I'm pretty picky about what type - I won't eat cod or farmed salmon for instance and my list of "acceptable" fish seems to be getting smaller by the day). However, I do not believe in causing suffering to any animal needlessly and have campaigned for humane rearing and slaughter of animals. When it comes to "pet" animals, I believe we have an even stronger personal responsibility since we are taking wild animals from their natural environment (in a lot of cases).

If it is not essential to feed live vertebrates (i.e. aware creatures) to a predator, we should not do it. We certainly shouldn't do it because we think its some perverse form of "fun" (incidently, are you aware that there is a very direct link between enjoying animal suffering and psychopathy? ). A feeder guppy being chased round a tank is not in a natural situation and he cannot escape. At least in the wild he'd have a chance.

Recent research is confirming what we fish keepers have always suspected - that fish are a heck of a lot smarter and more aware than anyone thought possible. Being more aware means that they suffer more than we used to think - they do know when they are being hunted down and they do experience pain. It is part of a fish's natural life but in nature they are not cornered in a small tank.

It is perfectly possible not to be a vegetarian but to believe that animals should be given the respect due to them and not needlessly tortured. That is not hypocritical, that is common sense. If you are interested in the subject of humane rearing and slaughter of animals, I'd direct you to the Compassion in World Farming website. And please, don't call people hypocrits if you don't even understand their position.

 

[Squimps]

It is perfectly possible not to be a vegetarian but to believe that animals should be given the respect due to them and not

Have you ever been to a chicken farm or slaughterhouse? I'm interested in how humane you think those situations are. Or is it that you only buy meat, fish and poultry from sources that kill their animals by waiting for them to die by natural causes? Do the cows have a chance to decide their own fate? What about the huge drag nets that catch the fish you eat? So I guess you think it's wrong to kill your own food but it's OK if someone else does it for you? It's easy not to think about it when it's wrapped all nice and fresh in the supermarket.

 

[smb]

OK let's please keep this civil.

Everyone is more than entitled to share their opinions, and that's what a forum is about, but we can't learn from each others viewpoints if things start going downhill and everyone feels like they have to defend their opinions instead of debate them.

 

[juanveldez]

as already stated I do not question you anna but I will say this. I think that this is going to get out of hand before too long. now that being stated I am going to throw a bit more gas on the fire anna I doubt that any of us here would ever meet your requirements for being responible.... you see because we all have different standards of care for our fish. as smb has already also stated that many of us keep piscivorius fish. lets take pirhanas for example.... yes they don't strictly eat fish, and there are many frozen foods that you can use. BUT y not allow them to be pirhanas? y not allow them to do what they would do in the wild and stalk and kill prey? if they have places to hide there are also places to hide for the prey I have seen feeders that I have bred for my pirhanas that have stayed in the tank for weeks.

 

[smb]

I think that this is going to get out of hand before too long.

No it won't. As long as we all can learn from the posts and if everyone is just polite then it will all go great. Otherwise I'll just close the thread if we can't all play nice.

I would hate to do that and and it's a last resort but to think that we all can't learn from each other when it comes to sensitive issues? Debate not having to defend is my motto.

 

[Squimps]

I didn't think that I was getting nasty but I guess others are beginning to see it that way. First off, I apologize to Anna if it seems like I was attacking you personally...I wasn't. As with most situations dealing with life, death, etc. these things can get a bit drawn out. I guess we all have boundaries as to what's acceptable and what isn't when it comes to these things. I get a little frustrated when I perceive a double standard on issues like this but maybe I was being too hasty. I don't know Anna well enough to make that call so perhaps I shouldn't have been so aggressive but it also appeared that she was the one who came out with guns blazing at the beginning of the thread.

So...Anna I respect your views although I hold to my opinions on the matter. With that, I will bow out of the debate

 

[david27]

Hold on everyone I've noticed one thing in this forum all those people attacking anna for her opinions on feeding live fish, live in the US. In the UK most pubilcations don't encourage feeding live fish unless the fish won't take dead food. So perhaps it is just a case of different cultures in our hobby which you simply will not be altered by attacking peoples personal beliefs. ps who wants to keep pirhanas anyway, pretty ugly looking things to me

 

[Alien Anna]

Have you ever been to a chicken farm or slaughterhouse? I'm interested in how humane you think those situations are. Or is it that you only buy meat, fish and poultry from sources that kill their animals by waiting for them to die by natural causes? Do the cows have a chance to decide their own fate? What about the huge drag nets that catch the fish you eat? So I guess you think it's wrong to kill your own food but it's OK if someone else does it for you? It's easy not to think about it when it's wrapped all nice and fresh in the supermarket.

I buy my chicken from a chicken farm where I know how those animals are reared and slaughtered. I buy other meat from a butchers where they can practically tell you the name of the cow that's gone into the steak. It's not about whether they can decide their fate, it is about whether they suffer when they are killed or not.

Drag-fishing does concern me, which is why I don't just thoughtlessly buy it from the supermarket and I will buy stuff like wild brown trout (line caught).

I buy almost no meat or fish from supermarkets, actually, and won't buy stuff that looks like a squished pink jellyfish. Fortunately I can afford to be so picky - many consumers cannot and that is why we should campaign so that everybody has that choice.

I would happily kill my own food if I knew how to do it safely (ie effectively), humanely and it was legal (it is not in UK, without a licence). However, fitting in a butchery course at present would be a little impractical. The nearest I've been to that is catching my own mackerel (which I killed with a sharp blow to the head).

You position seems to be either go vegan or totally ignore animal welfare issues. I'm presuming you take the latter option? If not, is this really about my views on animal welfare or about justifying yourself? Call me a cynic, but I sincerely doubt you are that interested in whether I eat free-range, organic chicken or whatever.

 

[smb]

Squimps, I surely hope you don't "bow out". That wasn't the conclusion I was trying to get at and we can't laren if everyone just stops posting. I just saw this could "possibly" go in a different direction and wanted to get it back on track is all.

You are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone here and I hope you will use that right...but just in a constructive way.

You said in your last post that we were wrong for thinking that and you didn't mean it that way, so I apologize I took it that way. I've just seen things get out of hand about this subject on too many forums and didn't want that to happen is all. I should have known this forum is better than that anyways.

 

[smb]

Hold on everyone I've noticed one thing in this forum all those people attacking anna for her opinions on feeding live fish, live in the US. In the UK most pubilcations don't encourage feeding live fish unless the fish won't take dead food. So perhaps it is just a case of different cultures in our hobby which you simply will not be altered by attacking peoples personal beliefs. ps who wants to keep pirhanas anyway, pretty ugly looking things to me

Good thinking. I didn't even think of that.

When are you UK folks going to get out of the dark ages?!!! j/k guys.

I know there are quite a few people in the US that agree with not feeding live but maybe you are right and it's the way we learned or were taught about the hobby growing up?

Anyone else have any opinion on whether it could be a geographical thing?

 

[Alien Anna]

lets take pirhanas for example.... yes they don't strictly eat fish, and there are many frozen foods that you can use. BUT y not allow them to be pirhanas? y not allow them to do what they would do in the wild and stalk and kill prey? if they have places to hide there are also places to hide for the prey I have seen feeders that I have bred for my pirhanas that have stayed in the tank for weeks.

Yes, allow them be piranhas - living in a shoal in a very large soft-water river tank (like the ones I've seen in public aquaria), with plenty of plants and hiding places. And feed them on a diet including the odd monkey and large rodent that happens to fall in.

I see too many people who keep a couple of red-bellied piranhas in a small, featureless tank and feed them on goldfish with the excuse that its their "natural behaviour" (Note: you can't actually buy "feeder fish" in UK - I believe its illegal to sell them for that purpose, or at least heavily discouraged). They'd have to go a long way to make that half "natural" and it wouldn't involve live goldfish!

Not that I'm implying this is what you do but I'm sure you see my point.