General Help With My New Nano/Shrimp Tank

[Grant_F]

603 TDS?....is this well water?....that's liquid rock, lol

Concur with the above on stocking...

It seemed very high to me as well haha. I have a feeling that number isn't going to have anything to do with my actual readings. That could be the reading they take at the treatment facility before the water is fully filtered and sent to peoples homes. So it could pass through any number of filters that catch the dissolved solids before it actually reaches me. I'll for sure post an update on what my reading is when I get the test kit.

 

[Slaphppy7]

Get one of these, doesn't have to be one of the pricier ones, they all measure pretty much the same thing

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=tds+mete...s,117&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_9&tag=ff0d01-20

 

[Essjay]

Once you have the test kit, you'll be able to finalise your stock wish list.

If you do have very soft water, it will take just one or two drops to change colour so the colour will be very dilute. Some brands tell you to look for a bright colour as the end point - ignore that and look for a colour change. After each drop stand the tube on something white and look down into the tube as this makes the colour change easier to see.

 

[Byron]

I don't currently have a gh test kit yet, it's on the way. I did look at the water quality report for my water source and these were the relevant values I found
Hardness as Ca/Mg: 8.49 ppm
Total alkalinity: 463 ppm
Dissolved solids: 603 ppm

I know that the Ca/Mg value is what gh refers to, not sure what total alkalinity or dissolved solids would be or if they matter. Of course that isn't going to be my exact value, but it shouldn't be any higher than 8.49 ppm.

GH as you know is the level of dissolved "hard" minerals, calcium and magnesium primarily. This is important for fish. The TDS is the level of all dissolved solids, including but not limited to the minerals (GH). Organics, water conditioner, fish food, any substance added to the water...all this determines the TDS. I wrote an article on TDS and TSS a while back that might explain this, and you can find it on @AbbeysDad blog, here is the link to the article:

Contact Support

 

[Grant_F]

GH as you know is the level of dissolved "hard" minerals, calcium and magnesium primarily. This is important for fish. The TDS is the level of all dissolved solids, including but not limited to the minerals (GH). Organics, water conditioner, fish food, any substance added to the water...all this determines the TDS. I wrote an article on TDS and TSS a while back that might explain this, and you can find it on @AbbeysDad blog, here is the link to the article:

Contact Support

So after reading the article I am curious if I should even bother with GH. If I get a meter to check the TDS of the water, is that all I need to worry about? I have a feeling that the Ca/Mg specifically doesn't matter as much to fish as it does to shrimp. The same way we use calcium for our bones, shrimp use it for their shells I believe. If that is the case, a proper TDS reading wouldn't necessarily mean the water has what it needs. Since I plan to have fish and shrimp, my main question is:

If the water has a improper GH reading, but a proper TDS reading, is that ok? And vica versa?

 

[Byron]

So after reading the article I am curious if I should even bother with GH. If I get a meter to check the TDS of the water, is that all I need to worry about? I have a feeling that the Ca/Mg specifically doesn't matter as much to fish as it does to shrimp. The same way we use calcium for our bones, shrimp use it for their shells I believe. If that is the case, a proper TDS reading wouldn't necessarily mean the water has what it needs. Since I plan to have fish and shrimp, my main question is:

If the water has a improper GH reading, but a proper TDS reading, is that ok? And vica versa?

No, there is more to this. In my view, GH is far more important for fish. I have never tested TDS. But having said that, I know the source of my tap water is actually very good. Zero GH and zero KH, with a natural (at source reservoirs) pH very acidic, in the 5's if I remember correctly. They now add soda ash to increase the pH. So the TDS are lower (I did once see the number, can't remember now). I am more concerned with the TDS I add via conditioner (one reason I so frequently say, do not overdose conditioner), plant fertilizer, etc.

The GH is for many species critical. I thought the article made that clear, but I also have one on hardness and pH:

Contact Support

Fish evolved to function best with the least amount of difficulty in soft water need a lower GH, whereas fish evolved to need minerals in the water need a higher GH, depending upon species as this is very general. But GH is crucial to most species. There is some level of adaptability but only for some species and subject to the difference (there is a limit).


@AbbeysDad I just noticed that a section of the article on TDS repeats itself, near the mid-point. B.

 

[Grant_F]

Live plants will also help. Plants take up ammonia faster than bacteria and they don't turn it into nitrite, and floating plants, being near the tank light and CO2 in the air, are particularly good at this. It is possible to have a tank where the plants do all the work and the filter just moves the water round. If you want live plants we can give you some suggestions.

I think with everyone's help I have pretty much figured out what animals are going into the tank. Once I figure out the GH I will decide for sure. I do think I want to add a live plant of some sort. I can't really figure out how strong the stock light is on this tank, so I'm not sure how good it will be for plants. The only thing I could find on the LED light bar was "12V 3.3W". I can assume that means the whole light is 3.3W and that doesn't put out a whole lot of lumens for a deeper than normal 10 gallon. I don't particularly want to mess around with getting a better light either since I can't use the typical straight light bars with my canopy. Not to mention that I didn't get a good substrate for growing plants either. It's just a hassle I don't want to really deal with. My hope is that a floating plant like guppy grass or hornwort would bypass any problems like that. They don't need the substrate and they would be close to the light source. What do you think are some good options for plants?

Also, I went to guppy grass and hornwort because I plan to get 10ish shrimp with the hope that they might breed eventually. Even nano fish will eat the fry when they are little unless they have LOTS of places to hide. They still might all get eaten, but a bushy plant increases their chances haha.

 

[Essjay]

Hornwort works well as a floating plant and a hiding place but mine grew and grew so be warned I anchored mine down by wrapping one end of the stem round a branchy piece of wood. I've not tried guppy grass.

Floating plants are good because they are near the lights so even a low powered light is usually good enough.

 

[Grant_F]

Hornwort works well as a floating plant and a hiding place but mine grew and grew so be warned I anchored mine down by wrapping one end of the stem round a branchy piece of wood. I've not tried guppy grass.

Floating plants are good because they are near the lights so even a low powered light is usually good enough.

I think I am going to try guppy grass. I think it will provide a more full floating island of plant that the shrimp fry can hide in and it will provide the shade that the chili rasboras are used to. What order do you suggest I add everything? Everything meaning plants, fish, and shrimp. I just started cycling the tank since I had to order ammonia that didn't have any surfactants. Add everything all at once since I'm cycling at 3 ppm, or in a specific order?

 

[StevenF]

I don't currently have a gh test kit yet, it's on the way. I did look at the water quality report for my water source and these were the relevant values I found
Hardness as Ca/Mg: 8.49 ppm
Total alkalinity: 463 ppm
Dissolved solids: 603 ppm

I know that the Ca/Mg value is what gh refers to, not sure what total alkalinity or dissolved solids would be or if they matter. Of course that isn't going to be my exact value, but it shouldn't be any higher than 8.49 ppm.

GH is a measure of calcium and magnesium. Common Ca/Mg compounds found in rivers and tap water are Ca/Mg sulfates, chloride, and carbonates.

KH are compounds with a carbonate ion (CO3). Common carbonates are CA/Mg carbonates, sodium bicarbonate, Potassium bicarbonate. However in riversCA/Mg carbonate dominate. However for various reasons potassium and sodium may be added to tap water.

Normally tap water typically has a higher GH that KH while hard water from rivers or well has a GH that is about equal to KH. The reason for the tap tap water having a higher GH is due to the chlorination process used to kill bacteria and parasites. Some of the chlorine converts Ca/Mg carbonate to chlorides.

As to High KH water with Low GH this is typically causes by home water softeners. These use salt to remove Ca/Mg from the water. In the process sodium bicarbonate is added to the water. End result KH is high and GH is low. earlier this year I saw evidence that some utilities are suing this process to soften tap water. Unfortunately the high sodium levels can be harmful to fish and probably shrimp.

Another possible reason for the high KH is that th utility boosted the KH to increase PH of the water to minimize water pipe corrosion.

Can you provide a link to your water quality report?

 

[Grant_F]

Another possible reason for the high KH is that th utility boosted the KH to increase PH of the water to minimize water pipe corrosion.

Can you provide a link to your water quality report?

I attached the water quality report. By the way, the PH of my water straight out of the tap is 8.2. So, your thought that they boosted the KH to increase the PH seems likely.

 

[StevenF]

attached the water quality report. By the way, the PH of my water straight out of the tap is 8.2. So, your thought that they boosted the KH to increase the PH seems likely.

Sodium 225PPM
Potassium 8PPM
Calcium 3.223PPM
Magnesium less than 1PPM
Sulfate 6-11PPM
Total hardness 8ppm
Total alkalinity 322 to 384PPM


My understanding is that sodium and potassium levels in streams are normally close to each other. You have a very large 216pPPM difference and in my opinion its not good for aquatic animals. Note high potassium levels or high sodium levels can cause the same problem. People are more tolerant but excessive sodium or potassium levels but it still is dangerous to people.

About the only thing I can think of doing is to dilute your water with RO water. You can buy RO water but that can get expensive. You can get a portable RO system that can attach to a sink faucet or an outdoor faucet. A second hose than does to a drain.. Then a third hose goes to your tank or container to store the RO water. This is an example of one system that can produce 50 gallons of RO water per day. Note I don't have this system.

 

[vanalisa]

Wowzers!!!
who would have ever thought there'd be so much information in this thread I love it love it love it thanks everybody!

@Rocky998

 

[Grant_F]

If you do have very soft water, it will take just one or two drops to change colour so the colour will be very dilute.

No, there is more to this. In my view, GH is far more important for fish. I have never tested TDS. But having said that, I know the source of my tap water is actually very good. Zero GH and zero KH, with a natural (at source reservoirs) pH very acidic, in the 5's if I remember correctly. They now add soda ash to increase the pH. So the TDS are lower (I did once see the number, can't remember now). I am more concerned with the TDS I add via conditioner (one reason I so frequently say, do not overdose conditioner), plant fertilizer, etc.

The GH is for many species critical. I thought the article made that clear, but I also have one on hardness and pH:

Contact Support

Fish evolved to function best with the least amount of difficulty in soft water need a lower GH, whereas fish evolved to need minerals in the water need a higher GH, depending upon species as this is very general. But GH is crucial to most species. There is some level of adaptability but only for some species and subject to the difference (there is a limit).

Sodium 225PPM
Potassium 8PPM
Calcium 3.223PPM
Magnesium less than 1PPM
Sulfate 6-11PPM
Total hardness 8ppm
Total alkalinity 322 to 384PPM


My understanding is that sodium and potassium levels in streams are normally close to each other. You have a very large 216pPPM difference and in my opinion its not good for aquatic animals. Note high potassium levels or high sodium levels can cause the same problem. People are more tolerant but excessive sodium or potassium levels but it still is dangerous to people.

I just quoted you guys since you were the ones giving me advice on GH/KH. The results are in haha. I got the test kit and ran a few tests.

For the tank I am cycling right now that is filled entirely with tap water the GH was 0 and the KH was 40. I typically use API PROPER 7.0 to dechlorinate my water and adjust the pH at the same time. This raises the KH since it advertises that it "stabilizes pH to 7.0". Since that it what I used for the tank it increased the KH. Side note, when I added the ammonia to cycle the tank the pH went up to 8.2 and I left it there just for the cycle process.
I ran the tests on completely untreated tap water. The GH was 0 and the KH was 31. A decrease in KH from the tank water since I didn't use PROPER 7.0.
I ran the tests on tap water that I used pH DOWN to adjust the pH to 7.0. The GH was 0 and the KH was 27. Given percent error I am going to assume that the KH is roughly the same between the two tap waters not treated with PROPER 7.0. This test was merely for curiosity sake since there shouldn't have been any reason the KH would change with pH DOWN.

All that being said, this is obviously not the best water parameters for aquatic life. From what I can find, it doesn't seem like high KH levels have any adverse effects since it just acts as a buffer for pH. I can't find anything about KH values as high as mine though, so I'm curious what your opinions are on that high of a KH reading.

Steven, in regards to what you said about the sodium and potassium. I did some research on the typical sodium levels in freshwater lakes and rivers and they are typically 0.5 parts per thousand (ppt) or less. The sodium reading of 253 ppm comes out to 0.253 ppt. So, I'm hoping there won't be any problems there. Not sure about potassium though since I can't really find anything about it.

The GH is a whole other problem entirely. Since the water report showed that there was only 8.49 ppm of Ca/Mg I think we already expected the GH to be 0. For some fish that GH is probably ok, but I would need to raise it for any shrimp. Seachem Equilibrium is what I would probably use for that since it wont affect pH or KH and is safe for plants. I'm pretty sure I know what I need to do for the GH stuff, so I was just letting you guys know in case you were curious.

Other side note is that I am going to start a 75 gallon tank at some point. I already have the tank and stand because they were on a crazy sale together, but I am going to slowly get the stuff so I have time to plan the tank out. I'll be starting another thread about planning that project later, so be on the look out for that. I bring it up here because if I want to raise the GH of a 75 gallon tank I need A LOT more seachem equilibrium. Fortunately they sell a 4 lb bucket so I might just get that.

 

[Byron]

Do not use pH adjusters in an aquarium. Once you have fish, these chemicals are dangerous for them, I am not sure about crustaceans (your intended shrimp) but they may be harmed as well.

The GH of 0 for the tap water (8 ppm according to the water people, which will show as 0 to 1 with our tests) is very soft water, and this is not good for many shrimp. It is the calcium in the water they need, not KH or pH. But the fish are affected by GH so be careful.

Equilibrium is not necessarily the best way to go here. I used it in two tanks for two years, to provide calcium for the plants. A marine biologist advised me to stop for the sake of the fish, so I did. I have since found that I can provide sufficient calcium with Flourish Tabs, and these do not get into the water to harm fish and shrimp. It depends upon the intended plant species and numbers, which method may be best with the least impact on the intended fish. And the nano species are more sensitive to all of this, much more sensitive.