From Fresh To Salt

[guidedbyechoes]

Hello all.

I am pondering turning my freshwater 25 gallon US into a saltwater setup. Am I right in assuming that I will have to go through the cycling process yet again for salt? Also I was wondering about live rock. Does it all have to be added at once during cycling? I have a hangon filter that I wished to use until all the rock was added then use it for extra circulation in a dead spot. I will most likely put the live sand in right away. I went to a place caled pet world and they had carib sand as live sand. But it was dry so I don't see how it could be live?

Also does the sump need to be set up at the same time or can that be added later. I don't want huge fluctuations with nitrates/trites so I want to be sure. I'm aiming at a 10 gal US. I plan on eventually keeping soft corals so I'm looking at getting a 65 watt pc to go with the 15 ocean sun bulb loaded flourescent I currently have.

I plan to get a skimmer as well but that won't be critical in my mind until I'm finished with cycling.

I also wanted to know what would be a decent amount of inverts for the tank. I was thinking 2 skunks, 3 turbo snails and maybe 2 hermits? As for fish I'm thinking 2 osc. clowns, a goby and maybe a small wrasse. Not 100% set yet.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Musho3210]

your stocking seems great, you may want some powerheads since they are more effective than HOB filters flow wise. Use the HOB filter as a fluidized filter (used only for chemical media like carbon and phosphate remover) or use it as a mechanical filter. Clean it every 1-3 days if its mechanical, if you dont have the time to clean it, then dont bother with mechanical filtration.

Using a drilled overflow requires you to set up the sump at the same time you set up the tank. Using a overflow box means you can set it up anytime you want, but again, its easier to set up the overflow box in the beginning so you can make sure its working. Drilled tanks are much better than overflows since overflows are known to fail sometimes.

For softies, i would get a bit more light than just 65 watts PC. Contrary to popular belief, most true softy corals (leathers) like high light and high flow. Its the zoanthid and coralimorphs (spelling) aka mushrooms, that are soft and like low light, but arent true soft corals. 65 watt can give you xenia, zoas, palys, shrooms, photosynthetic polyps, probably some lps like torch, frogspawn, candy cane, trumpet. If i were you, i wouldnt get the skimmer and i would use that extra money to buy a stronger light.

Adding all the live rock in the beginning is best if you can afford it. This way the tank cycles with the live rock (no need for you to add anything like ammonia or dead shrimp) and you dont need to cure the rock separately.

 

[guidedbyechoes]

your stocking seems great, you may want some powerheads since they are more effective than HOB filters flow wise. Use the HOB filter as a fluidized filter (used only for chemical media like carbon and phosphate remover) or use it as a mechanical filter. Clean it every 1-3 days if its mechanical, if you dont have the time to clean it, then dont bother with mechanical filtration.

Using a drilled overflow requires you to set up the sump at the same time you set up the tank. Using a overflow box means you can set it up anytime you want, but again, its easier to set up the overflow box in the beginning so you can make sure its working. Drilled tanks are much better than overflows since overflows are known to fail sometimes.

For softies, i would get a bit more light than just 65 watts PC. Contrary to popular belief, most true softy corals (leathers) like high light and high flow. Its the zoanthid and coralimorphs (spelling) aka mushrooms, that are soft and like low light, but arent true soft corals. 65 watt can give you xenia, zoas, palys, shrooms, photosynthetic polyps, probably some lps like torch, frogspawn, candy cane, trumpet. If i were you, i wouldnt get the skimmer and i would use that extra money to buy a stronger light.

Adding all the live rock in the beginning is best if you can afford it. This way the tank cycles with the live rock (no need for you to add anything like ammonia or dead shrimp) and you dont need to cure the rock separately.

I forgot to mention the powerhead. I know I need one that does 250 gallons per hour. The ones you named are the ones I want. I plan on adding the coral later though. No need to get into a big rush I mean I could just save up a little buy everything I need to get the tank set up, then worry about the extra ligthing as I will have some time from cycling to when its safe to add fish. You mentioned a drilled tank. Do you mean drilling into the main tank? or the overflow being drilled?

 

[SkiFletch]

He means drilling the main tank

As for the sand, just buy plain aragonite sand and allow the Live Rock to seed it. Also remember, LR comes with it's own bacteria allready on it, so cycling is very quick/abbreviated. Its basically like cloning a freshwater tank and adding some waste to it just to make sure it does in fact process it.

Btw, where in the world are ya from?

 

[guidedbyechoes]

He means drilling the main tank

As for the sand, just buy plain aragonite sand and allow the Live Rock to seed it. Also remember, LR comes with it's own bacteria allready on it, so cycling is very quick/abbreviated. Its basically like cloning a freshwater tank and adding some waste to it just to make sure it does in fact process it.

Btw, where in the world are ya from?

I don't think I'd try drilling a tank might have to do an overflow.

I am from Waukesha, WI. 8)

 

[Tommy Gun]

Waukesha hey? Small world, huh?

I agree that a sump is a good idea...but it might not be worth the money in a 25 gallon tank since you could probably upgrade to a larger tank for half the cost. You are right though, you don't want to be drilling your tank unless you know exactly what you are doing - and even though I am 99% sure I could do it, I still wont take the risk on my tanks. Although perhaps acrylic tanks are a different story (I dont have any, so I wouldnt know).

In some cases, you can get away with having lower levels of light, but are then restricted to keeping your corals near the top of the tank. I have read and IME, it seems very plausible that Xenia can survive under some very minimal light, so it is a good choice. I would say that all mushrooms are not really created equal, meaning some might do better with less light were as others might need a bit more to really thrive...again, just my experience though. In any case, I suggest holding off a bit on planning for the corals right now since you don't really want to take that leap right away...even after your tank has completed the nitrogen cycle, there are other stages and phases that you might want to wait for --- which is not to mention the fact that anyone can benifit from some time getting accustomed to the maintenance side of saltwater (versus FW, obviously).

You can buy live rock directly from Aquatic's Unlimited for pennies more than you can buy argonite sand or any other live or potentially live sand. Or you can use some other types of SW safe sand and buy a couple cups of live sand from aquatics to really get things going quickly.

I don't really agree with Musho completely on the live rock....you will have the ability to add a smaller amount of LR and then save money by adding base rock before, during, and after the nitrogen cycle. To bolster that idea, there is no rule that states live rock is an absolute "must have"....many people keep SW fish in tanks which, if you didn't know better, look exactly like a FW tank (meaning, no live rock, regular types of gravel, little decorations, fake plants, etc...). Additionally, when I upgraded my reef tank, I obviously had room for more live rock, and so I simply added a bunch more base rock and now it fits the exact definition of live rock...some of it even has coralline algae growth on it (I hid most of the base rock under the live rock for aestethic reasons, hence, a lot of it is not getting a lot of light)

Well, it is cool to meet someone who is basically just down the road from me on this forum! If you would like, I might be able to help point out some of the better LFS to visit for one item or another since I often frequent quite a few of them becuase some have decent pricing on one thing, or another.

 

[Musho3210]

yes but you added BASE rock later, not LIVE rock, sure it turned live, but you didnt add it as live.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Sorry if it sounded like I am disagreeing with you Musho as this wasn't my complete intention...I was simply trying to say that one doesn't need to have his/her tank full of cured live rock in order to start up a salty tank - or that it was all completely needed to start the nitrogen cycle. But for the record, as I explained in my SW odyssey thread, near the beginning, I did add more live rock to the tank after the cycle was complete without re-curing it (althought, I admit, the store I bought it from is less than 15 minutes away from my house); and I had some fish in there at the time as well, albeit damsels/clowns. Granted, it was not the best idea for a couple of reasons, but didn't really lead to huge problems either. Which is all besides the point becuase my suggestion would always be to add base rock to a tank after the initial live rock since there really is no good reason to do otherwise unless coral is attached to it. True, perhaps one might want to add some live rock from a different location around the world (e.g. figi, tonga, etc..) but from what I have noticed, it all basically ends up looking extremely similar anyways and of course, costs quite a bit more in the first place usually.

Again, I shouldn't have said that I disagreed with you as this was a bit too harsh of a term...I probably just have a different take on what you were trying to say

 

[guidedbyechoes]

Waukesha hey? Small world, huh?

I agree that a sump is a good idea...but it might not be worth the money in a 25 gallon tank since you could probably upgrade to a larger tank for half the cost. You are right though, you don't want to be drilling your tank unless you know exactly what you are doing - and even though I am 99% sure I could do it, I still wont take the risk on my tanks. Although perhaps acrylic tanks are a different story (I dont have any, so I wouldnt know).

In some cases, you can get away with having lower levels of light, but are then restricted to keeping your corals near the top of the tank. I have read and IME, it seems very plausible that Xenia can survive under some very minimal light, so it is a good choice. I would say that all mushrooms are not really created equal, meaning some might do better with less light were as others might need a bit more to really thrive...again, just my experience though. In any case, I suggest holding off a bit on planning for the corals right now since you don't really want to take that leap right away...even after your tank has completed the nitrogen cycle, there are other stages and phases that you might want to wait for --- which is not to mention the fact that anyone can benifit from some time getting accustomed to the maintenance side of saltwater (versus FW, obviously).

You can buy live rock directly from Aquatic's Unlimited for pennies more than you can buy argonite sand or any other live or potentially live sand. Or you can use some other types of SW safe sand and buy a couple cups of live sand from aquatics to really get things going quickly.

I don't really agree with Musho completely on the live rock....you will have the ability to add a smaller amount of LR and then save money by adding base rock before, during, and after the nitrogen cycle. To bolster that idea, there is no rule that states live rock is an absolute "must have"....many people keep SW fish in tanks which, if you didn't know better, look exactly like a FW tank (meaning, no live rock, regular types of gravel, little decorations, fake plants, etc...). Additionally, when I upgraded my reef tank, I obviously had room for more live rock, and so I simply added a bunch more base rock and now it fits the exact definition of live rock...some of it even has coralline algae growth on it (I hid most of the base rock under the live rock for aestethic reasons, hence, a lot of it is not getting a lot of light)

Well, it is cool to meet someone who is basically just down the road from me on this forum! If you would like, I might be able to help point out some of the better LFS to visit for one item or another since I often frequent quite a few of them becuase some have decent pricing on one thing, or another.

Yeah I bought some java moss from aquatics unlimited. They know what they are doing. I was just thinking of using the 25 gallon as a sump. I moved its inhabitents into a smaller aquarium since it was a betta, a frog, and 2 shrimp. I was planning on upgrading the light on it. its 15 watts currantly. But I think a 50 gal would be much easier since there is more room and lots more water. I've always wanted osc clowns for 10 years or so but that would open up opions for a couple more fish that won't fit in the 25 such as the wrasse.

I also checked out hoeffers on 76th. Not one person asked if I needed help and I was there for about an hour. At aquatics I talked to the people for a while and they had some knowledge. I also tried pet world and the fish person didn't know what compact or metal hallide lighting was

A friend of mine goes to Ken's in lake Geneva. He highly recommends him.

It never occurred to me to use base rock and some live. I already have sand in the FW tank. I just have to remove the plants in it.

 

[Musho3210]

that sand is probably silica from your freshwater tank, it poses no threat to saltwater tanks, but its awfully ugly if you are going for the natural looking tank.

 

[guidedbyechoes]

that sand is probably silica from your freshwater tank, it poses no threat to saltwater tanks, but its awfully ugly if you are going for the natural looking tank.

It looks like the sand in florida. I don't remember the brand name. wasn't carib sea. I'll try to find out. Tahitian moon I think it was. It was something to do with a moon

 

[Tommy Gun]

Sounds like you are on the right track then with the larger tank. Even though it probably doesn't apply as much these days, it is/was often suggested to start out with a larger tank since the additional water volume gives you a bit more slack towards making a mistake or two.

I also checked out hoeffers on 76th. Not one person asked if I needed help and I was there for about an hour. At aquatics I talked to the people for a while and they had some knowledge.

I am willing to bet that you agree with me when I say that both aquatics and hoffers are the most expensive LFS in this neck of the woods, so I really try to stay away from then when buying most types of equipment, supplies or livestock unless I am looking for livestock which is a bit more 'rare' or hard to find since both have more selection than any other store I have been in...and of course, they are the stores which have a larger amount/type of corals. However, from my own experience with these stores are that, while I agree Aquatics has some very knowledgeable employees - HOWEVER, there are a couple of them which are extremely good at steering people in the wrong direction while making it seem as though they know everything...especially the one blonde girl there (she once swore up and down to me that mandarin dragonettes will absolutely and without exception, would never eat prepared foods, which is simply not true) - but at hoffer's, if you can get ahold of an employee, they employ at least two literal experts, one of which has actually written some books and/or has gained some notoriety. Also, in every case I have ever found myself in, if one of their employees does not know the answers to a question, they have always went to 'fetch' someone who can. However, I do realize that your and my experiences could be polar opposites.

A friend of mine goes to Ken's in lake Geneva. He highly recommends him.

I actually grew up in that area (East Troy to be exact), but haven't visited and LFS down there. I will definitely check it out so thanks for the tip!

that sand is probably silica from your freshwater tank, it poses no threat to saltwater tanks, but its awfully ugly if you are going for the natural looking tank.

If this is the case, you may be able to stave off any aesthetic issues by mixing your current sand with some other sand which might 'hide' some of the ugliness. In fact, I think at least a few people might agree with me when I say that even white or otherwise light colored live sand can be just as unsightly after a while, so I simply added some 'regular' black sand (meaning it is marketed primarily for use in FW tanks) so most messes were less visible. Also, just to clarify things a little bit, the term 'live sand' is sometimes misused by certain people and/or LFS in that, as you point out, they describe sand as being 'live' when it really isn't, at the time. My guess is that the term 'base sand' never caught on; although I have heard of it being called "almost-live sand.

In regards to your query about having to re-cycle your tank after you switch to saltwater...while I believe that the beneficial bacteria we commonly refer to are one in the same between SW, FW and even brackish water, I am not sure if that bacteria can handle the sudden addition of salt or an otherwise large change in environment. Come to think of it, I have yet to hear/read of any mention toward this being true or false, however, I haven't ever delved into the subject so it is quite possible that since I wasn't looking, it slipped past me.

By the way....I am not 100% right now, but I am starting to lean very heavily towards removing the sump from my larger system, so if i do go that route, I might be able to give you a sweet deal on an HOB overflow (with a max of 600 gph) which will always restart itself should a pump fail, or the power goes out, and perhaps even the sump itself. If you are interested in that, let me know and I will let you know what I decide to do.

 

[guidedbyechoes]

Sounds like you are on the right track then with the larger tank. Even though it probably doesn't apply as much these days, it is/was often suggested to start out with a larger tank since the additional water volume gives you a bit more slack towards making a mistake or two.

I also checked out hoeffers on 76th. Not one person asked if I needed help and I was there for about an hour. At aquatics I talked to the people for a while and they had some knowledge.

I am willing to bet that you agree with me when I say that both aquatics and hoffers are the most expensive LFS in this neck of the woods, so I really try to stay away from then when buying most types of equipment, supplies or livestock unless I am looking for livestock which is a bit more 'rare' or hard to find since both have more selection than any other store I have been in...and of course, they are the stores which have a larger amount/type of corals. However, from my own experience with these stores are that, while I agree Aquatics has some very knowledgeable employees - HOWEVER, there are a couple of them which are extremely good at steering people in the wrong direction while making it seem as though they know everything...especially the one blonde girl there (she once swore up and down to me that mandarin dragonettes will absolutely and without exception, would never eat prepared foods, which is simply not true) - but at hoffer's, if you can get ahold of an employee, they employ at least two literal experts, one of which has actually written some books and/or has gained some notoriety. Also, in every case I have ever found myself in, if one of their employees does not know the answers to a question, they have always went to 'fetch' someone who can. However, I do realize that your and my experiences could be polar opposites.

A friend of mine goes to Ken's in lake Geneva. He highly recommends him.

I actually grew up in that area (East Troy to be exact), but haven't visited and LFS down there. I will definitely check it out so thanks for the tip!

that sand is probably silica from your freshwater tank, it poses no threat to saltwater tanks, but its awfully ugly if you are going for the natural looking tank.

If this is the case, you may be able to stave off any aesthetic issues by mixing your current sand with some other sand which might 'hide' some of the ugliness. In fact, I think at least a few people might agree with me when I say that even white or otherwise light colored live sand can be just as unsightly after a while, so I simply added some 'regular' black sand (meaning it is marketed primarily for use in FW tanks) so most messes were less visible. Also, just to clarify things a little bit, the term 'live sand' is sometimes misused by certain people and/or LFS in that, as you point out, they describe sand as being 'live' when it really isn't, at the time. My guess is that the term 'base sand' never caught on; although I have heard of it being called "almost-live sand.

In regards to your query about having to re-cycle your tank after you switch to saltwater...while I believe that the beneficial bacteria we commonly refer to are one in the same between SW, FW and even brackish water, I am not sure if that bacteria can handle the sudden addition of salt or an otherwise large change in environment. Come to think of it, I have yet to hear/read of any mention toward this being true or false, however, I haven't ever delved into the subject so it is quite possible that since I wasn't looking, it slipped past me.

By the way....I am not 100% right now, but I am starting to lean very heavily towards removing the sump from my larger system, so if i do go that route, I might be able to give you a sweet deal on an HOB overflow (with a max of 600 gph) which will always restart itself should a pump fail, or the power goes out, and perhaps even the sump itself. If you are interested in that, let me know and I will let you know what I decide to do.

Thanks man. Yeah this sand did get dirty pretty quick everything shows up on it. I have some algea bloom so I was hoping that I could add the salt and it would kill that too. I plan on using RO water to help with that.

 

[guidedbyechoes]

back from the trenches I was looking at used lighting and tanks at aquatics I saw a 30l for 30 dollars and a 55 for 65. I came to the conclusion that at 500 used for 150 watts metal halide. Then I decided that going the route of the 30 was in my interest. Since I am space deficient. Next step is the power heads then the live rock. How many heads do I need like 4 at 250ghp or so? Also what would I need in the way of a clean up crew? I plan on getting lighting after the live rock of course. Thinking 2x65 watts which put me in a nice area that I can be happy in. Until space and fish greed take over

 

[Musho3210]

choose what corals you want before you choose light and flow. The more powerheads (not nessicarily more flow, just more powerheads) the better. Aka, 6 100gph pumps is better than 1 600gph pump in the tank because it provides back up, and random alternating flow, but does take up a bit of space. Find out how much flow you need, then divide that by 2, and thats how powerful the powerheads you need, and get two of those powerheads. I use 2 powerheads in my system.