Fishless Cycling Help Please

[Flubberlump]

I've turned the filter outlet so that it's facing upwards. It's disturbing the surface as much as possible. The airstone is on it's way so I'm hoping it arrives here tomorrow!

Nitrite was 0.8 this morning, and pH 7.5. I added 2ml of ammonia instead of the 4ml I had been adding, so ammonia was dosed to 1.5ppm.

Tonight the nitrite is 1.6 and pH 7.5.

 

[JDs4me]

I've turned the filter outlet so that it's facing upwards. It's disturbing the surface as much as possible. The airstone is on it's way so I'm hoping it arrives here tomorrow!

Nitrite was 0.8 this morning, and pH 7.5. I added 2ml of ammonia instead of the 4ml I had been adding, so ammonia was dosed to 1.5ppm.

Tonight the nitrite is 1.6 and pH 7.5.

doing the same as you! my NH3 is zeroed every 12 hours on a daily 2ml dose (260 litre tank) - I have dropped the water level in my tank so that the filter outlet water is dropping onto the surface waterfall style...maybe that might help if you can do it? I am monitoring NO2 by doing water changes every other day so that I can recognise a reduction (API chart not too good for my colour blindness!)

My pH seems stable at around 7.8-8

hope all works well for you!

 

[Flubberlump]

I bet it's not easy reading the chart with colour blindness! Daily 4ml doses of ammonia were being processed in less than 12 hours, and the resulting nitrite was being processed to almost 0, before the stall. I've now dropped the ammonia to 2ml.

I can't do that with my filter outlet as it's below the water surface. There's only about a 2mm difference between the minimum and maximum water level. It'd be much easier if I could drop the water level! I've had to invest in an airstone and pump instead for £20!

Thanks, hope yours is finished soon too. Let me know how you get on!

 

[Flubberlump]

Nitrite was 0.2 this morning! I add ammonia in the morning so it's 24 hours later. pH was somewhere between 7.5 and 8.

Just need the nitrite to be processed in 12 hours now as it's definitely making progress. Hopefully the airstone will help sort that for me.

I did turn the filter outlet upwards a little the other day. I didn't think it had made much difference as it was already facing upwards, but I suppose it must have.

So the next problem is, my nitrite reagent number 2 has almost run out! I read somewhere that nitrAte reagent 1 and 2 are the same as the nitrite reagents. Is this true? I hope so, or I'll end up having to buy a new kit too.

Also, I should have mentioned earlier that the tank is covered with a blanket to prevent algae, which has worked perfectly so far! Will this cause problems for the bacteria? It didn't earlier on in the cycle, and I've heard of other people doing it. Just a thought.

As soon as the cycle has finished, my plants will be ordered. Nearly ordered them weeks ago when it looked like the cycle was almost done! Good job I didn't.

 

[Flubberlump]

The airstone is in! It's only half buried though as it blows half of the sand off every time I re-bury it. I think I'm going to have fun keeping plants in the sand. Any tips?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The acidification comes from the ammonia oxidising bacteria. As they convert ammonia to nitrite they pump out hydrogen ions which bond to water molecules to form hydronium and it's this that acidifies the water column. The nitrite and nitrate are merely indicators of the level of acidification.

Once again Prime has got it partially right and partially wrong. If you want to see why and how please read here Bio-acidification I am done doing any more than pointing folks to the facts rather than arguing. If you want to know you will read, if you don't, then you won't.

 

[Flubberlump]

I have read it, thank you, it was very interesting, and I now have a better understanding of what's going on in the tank and why from a scientific perspective.

I did mention earlier on in the thread though, that I did want to understand the science behind the changes in water parameters. So I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this:

[/quote]I am done doing any more than pointing folks to the facts rather than arguing. If you want to know you will read, if you don't, then you won't.
[/quote]

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I mean I have had a running disagreement with Prime on this forums for some time. He states things as "fact" that are not and when challenged by me with quotes and references and I ask him to provide the same, he is unable to. All those quotes and links I post intimidate many folks and they take me a lot of time to post. But I tend to trust the work of Ph.D.s over the statements of an anonymous user name who refuses to give his credentials or work experience to back up his credibility. And refuses to provide links which would do so.

I have finally decided to simply say he is wrong and that folks can go here and read why. Then readers can choose how to proceed.

What I will tell you is that based on your plan to have a heavily planted, co2 gas supplemented tank, almost everything you have gone through regarding cycling has been a complete waste of your time and effort. Imo, and that of plant gurus like Tom Barr, there is little or no need to cycle this sort of tank. Plant it, let the plants establish, then stock it. No cycling needed in most cases.

I have been able to set up a tank such as a 29 gallon and have it fully cycled and stocked in several hours. All I do is combine lots of plants with seasoned media and its good to go. How do I know it is cycled? I dose a small amount of ammonia and test in about 90 minutes. if I read 0 ammonia I know Its likely safe. if I have any doubts I test nitrites and if they are also 0, I amm 100% sure and I put in a full fish load. If I get any ammonia or nitrite reading, I will finish up by doing a mini-fishless cycle. The amount of bacteria I might need are minimal because the plants do most of the bio-filtration. So my colony takes a day or two to get the minimal amount of missing bacteria in place. So in your case using the method suggest by Prime is the wrong way to go. And it is the wrong way to go as well if you are trying to have an acid water tank. The application his method is best suited for is an African rift lake tank.

In your heavily planted tank you have grown a colony of bacteria which are going to be starved out of existence in the long run by the plants will literally eat their lunch. So what was the point?. Moreover, most plant sites will tell you that the best approach to planting a new tank is to give the plants which go into the substrate some time to establish their roots. Often fish will pull up new plants trying to eat algae off of them or by digging in the substrate for other things. This is especially true for the more delicate foreground plants

Here is another piece of advice. Unless you have no alternative, do not mess around with your tap water chemistry. Adding chemicals and buffers and things like wood, peat, baking soda etc etc. will cause more problems for most folks than they will solve. Yes there are instances where there may not be any other options, but they are the exception not the rule. The first way to avoid most of the pH drops associated with cycling problems is not to dose so much ammonia. I have always stated on this site and will always continue to say that one should not dose to 5 ppm even though it is the maximum number often suggested. Next is to understand that nitrite and nitrate and especially co2 do create acids which contribute to lowering pH. How much is a function of one's buffering aka KH. There is more to it than just some free H+ ions from the first stage of nitrification most of which get used up in the next phases. Moreover, nitrous acid inhibits nitrification and the higher the pH, the more of the nitrite will be in the form of nitrous acid.

If you are of a more scientific bent here is a pretty decent explanation of what is going on in terms of nitrification http/nitrification.org/

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I mean I have had a running disagreement with Prime on this forums for some time. He states things as "fact" that are not and when challenged by me with quotes and references and I ask him to provide the same, he is unable to. All those quotes and links I post intimidate many folks and they take me a lot of time to post. But I tend to trust the work of Ph.D.s over the statements of an anonymous user name who refuses to give his credentials or work experience to back up his credibility. And refuses to provide links which would do so.
(edited for space saving)

If you are of a more scientific bent here is a pretty decent explanation of what is going on in terms of nitrification http/nitrification.org/

+1

 

[Flubberlump]

TwoTankaMin, I'm not questioning your scientific knowledge. Please don't take this the wrong way, but your continuing issue with Prime Ordeal has nothing to do with me. I'm not trying to start and argument, I merely think that your tone was a bit unnecessary, as I have just followed the advice I have been given. It's not my fault that I have been given advice that you disagree with, and I started this thread, not Prime. With respect, please don't take the fact that he has commented on it to argue with him, as I started the thread to ask for advice, and for examples of other people's experiences, not to cause conflict. I do appreciate the links, so thank you. I do like to understand the reasons behind the changes we see in our tanks. There is so much conflicting information on here that it can be difficult to glean advice that is scientifically correct. Everyone has different understanding, belief and experience, so it's no surprise that different people offer different advice.

I was advised by someone in the planted section a few weeks ago, that it isn't entirely necessary to cycle a planted tank. My reason for doing so, is that I have never kept a heavily planted tank before, and never injected co2. I therefore wanted to make sure that there was sufficient biological filtration other than the plants, to cope with the waste produced by my stock. It's possible that I may have to adjust the co2/lighting period etc. in order to provide the plants with the ideal conditions for growth, allowing them to process toxins to their full potential. I am aware that many of the bacteria I am producing will be surplus to requirements, but I saw no harm in allowing a colony to establish before adding the plants. Better to have too much than too little as they say. I've not come across anything to the contrary. My main concern was making sure the fish would be in no danger of toxin poisoning. By cycling the tank, I'm making sure that there is more than enough biological filtration in the tank. I simply didn't have enough confidence to plant the tank and put fish in straight away. As I said, I have no experience of planted tanks, and wanted to put my mind at rest by cycling the tank first as I don't have an extended history of setting up numerous tanks using different methods.

Like I said, I really do appreciate the links that you provided, and have no doubt that you know what you're talking about. I'm not interested in getting involved in long term disputes on here, that's not what I'm here for, but I do feel that I needed to explain what I mean in my previous post. I apologise if I sound harsh, but I think that you took my last post the wrong way. I thought that it was aimed at me.

 

[Flubberlump]

Results this morning: nitrite 0.2, pH 7.5.

 

[Flubberlump]

This morning: nitrite 0.1, pH 7.5 - 8.

Not posted results for the last couple of days as there hadn't been any change. Pretty much just waiting for it to process in 12 hours now.

Also had to order a new test kit as the nitrite reagent no. 2 has almost run out!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

No, Flubber, nothing anybody can say on this site will get me upset, personally. I am too old and thick skinned at this point. What does get me ticked is when I see really incorrect info or bad advice. My intent when I post is to try to help folks. There are basically two ways to do this. One can say do this, then this and test that and then do this. And one can simply follow the advice or not without any fyuther information. The other way is to say this is what needs to be done because, and then try to explain the reason/science behind the advice. I tend to prefer the latter. And there is a simple reason. I do not want anybody to just take my word for something. I want folks to see it is not merely my opinion and experience but that of some pretty smart and well educated people.

I looked at you situation and your questions and realized a lot of what you were being told was not really good information and I knew that following a lot of it would continue to turn the relatively simple and easy process of setting up a tank into the problematic situation you got.

The best info you were given, imo, you mentioned when you said the plant person told you cycling planted was basically not needed. You believed, incorrectly, that it was a good idea to fully fishlessly cycle your tank and then plant it. And the result was a tank that could have been set up and stocked in about 3 weeks is going to end up taking you how long? March 8 to today is 45 days so far. And if you accept the idea that after planting one should allow time for the plants to establish before adding fish and ferts. You have another few weeks to go. And what is your plan, in terms of your cycle, once you reach the point of planting the tank? Are you going to try to feed the bacteria?

In the long run all the nitrufying bacteria that you have struggled to cultivate will do nothing for your tank/fifh and then, over enough time, most of it will be gone. Think of it as similar to algae in a planted tank. How do the plant folks advise one to rid a well planted tank of algae? The method is to get the ferts, light and co2 levels in balance for that tank and the plants will out compete the algae. Well the same idea hold true for the bacteria. Your plants will out compete your bacteria for food. Would knowing that have changed your appraoch from day 1? I can't say, but it could have.

The other side of the coin is something else I brought up in this thread. Water chemistry in tanks is not as simple as some folks would like to make it. It is very rare that one can add something to a tank which wont have much more complex effects than is realized by most of us. This is why you so often see the advice about always trying to work with your tap rather than playing around with the water chemistry. Well, imo, this applies to the cycling period as well.

In most cases, the simpler we can manage to keep things we do in relation to our tanks, the better. I wish you good luck with your new setup, I hope from here on in things go more smoothly for you than they have until now. I will refrain from offering you further advice after this one last piece. Rather than trying to sort out the variety of suggestions you got on this thread, often conflicting, pick one member whom you think can give you the best help and then deal with that person in PMs, emails or phone calls.

 

[OldMan47]

I will fully support the methods given here on TFF which is contrary to the ideas expressed here, until I see some scientific evidence that supports his/her opinion. TTA is supporting a fairly common opinion of planted tank people that cycling is not needed. I will now concede that no cycling was necessary on this tank that I have.

On the other hand some of you might possibly interpret this tank as being well planted, given the total duckweed cover and the added plants in that tank. Nonetheless that tank will kill fish with ammonia build up if it is not fully cycled before introducing fish.

I will say that if you do not give people a visual way of judging a tank, you are asking them to fail TTA. I do not doubt your sincerity, but disagree with your method of leaving it up to people to simply say, I have plants so I need not cycle first. That is entirely wrong. It requires enough thriving plants to get past the need to cycle and get to what we call a silent cycle.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Old man you have distorted what I said which forces me to respond. I never indicated that any planted tank needed no amount of cycling as you have implied above. I said one never needs to cycle in a high tech co2 added tank like the one the OP said was being set up.

What I will tell you is that based on your plan to have a heavily planted, co2 gas supplemented tank, almost everything you have gone through regarding cycling has been a complete waste of your time and effort. Imo, and that of plant gurus like Tom Barr, there is little or no need to cycle this sort of tank. Plant it, let the plants establish, then stock it. No cycling needed in most cases.

I also gave an example of how to quickly cycle the sort of tank in your second picture. You combine some bacteria seed material with the plants. I then told how to determine if the combination amount of both were sufficient to determine if the tank was cycled.

I have been able to set up a tank such as a 29 gallon and have it fully cycled and stocked in several hours. All I do is combine lots of plants with seasoned media and its good to go.How do I know it is cycled? I dose a small amount of ammonia and test in about 90 minutes. if I read 0 ammonia I know Its likely safe. if I have any doubts I test nitrites and if they are also 0, I amm 100% sure and I put in a full fish load. If I get any ammonia or nitrite reading, I will finish up by doing a mini-fishless cycle.

Please, have the decency to read my post, so you will criticize what I actually say and not what you think I said.

And in this thread I even went so far as to explain several ways to deal with the issue of finishing up a planted tank that did not have sufficient plants and seed media to handle the full bio-load immediately- http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/394347-fertilising-during-cycling/page__p__3315090#entry3315090

I have done all of the things regarding cycling that I post. I have cycled with fish and without. I have cycled using ammonia and using ammonium chloride. I have "cycled" with lots of plants, some plants and no plants. I have cycled using seasoned media and I have cycled with bottled bacteria. I do not suggest a method of doing things which I have not tried.

Exactly which methods are you supporting against whose opinion that needs some sort of proving? If its mine, let me know via PM what I have said for which you need proof and I will take it over to the Scientific Section and we can discuss it there.