Fish/water Ratio Formula Might Be Ready For Beta Testing

[eaglesaquarium]

I'm sorry for not replying, I have a major personal crisis that's left me depressed and exhausted, I will try to make a proper reply tomorrow

No rush.

 

[OldMan47]

You are right NickAU. The whole idea of the inch per gallon "rule" was to help keep newbies from overstocking. It was never meant to be guidance for someone with a little experience who could actually judge the biological load of a tank. In your 20 +/- gallon tank I am thinking you are fully stocked with little room to spare if a power outage comes along though.

 

[NickAu]

Where I live the area is prone to flooding and power outages
 
We have solar panels on the roof
 
 
I have a portable generator
https/www.kogan.com/au/buy/909-720-watt-petrol-generator-909/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_ads&gclid=CJfnoM-K0MoCFVWTvQodpikPCw

 

[Jeremy180]

I was going to reply with quotes, but Apparently that would exceed the max quotes allowed.  
So instead, I will be replying one post at a time.
For eagles aquarium's stocking lists:
Case a:
Ignoring the fact that the 22 neon tetras need much cooler temps than the other fish listed, and the fact that problems may well arise attempting to keep cories and bottom-dwelling cichlids like apistos together, minimum water would be:
 
22 blood fin tetras: 37 gallons, 141 liters
+
25 neon tetras: 19 gallons, 73 litres
+
20 sterbai corydoras: 61 gallons, 232 litres
+
1 bristlenos pleco (assuming common ancistrus): 4.5 gallons, 17 liters
+
4 apistogramma (Assuming A. caucitoides): 11 gallons, 40.5 liters
=
132 gallons
rounded up to the nearest standard tank size:
135 gallons (72" x 18" x 24")
Please note: the above breakdown figures are NOT minimum tank sizes, 
but the amount of water each fish would need alloted in a much larger general community.
  Additionally, as noted above, neons are quite incompatible with many of the above stocking
options temperatrure wise, a much better choice being cardinal tetras.
  Also, to reiterate once again, in general cories and bottom-dwelling cichlids are incompatible, as cories, 
being open-water fish, are usually incapable of learning about territories, and will constantly blunder
into the cichlid's territory, to the cichlid's continual frustration and possibly ending in injury 
to the cories
 
 
case b: 3 bettas (male) Simply put, cannot and will not happen in tanks under 180 gal, even then I wouldn't attempt it
.
3 Bettas (female sorority) if one manages to get relatively non aggressive individuals,
these MIGHT tolerate sharing a tank.
3 bettas (female): 6.5 gallons
rounded up to nearest standard tank size:
10 gallons
still a very chancy proposition though.
 case c:
Simply put, the below livestock cannot be safely housed together in any size tank.
at best you'll end up with only a mated jack dempsey pair. 
 At worst, after they both kill the other fish, one of the dempseys will kill the other 
and then die from it's battle wounds.
I'm not going to even try breaking the following down.
2 bolivian rams
2 kribensis
2 jack dempseys
 
 I'll have to reply to everyone else tomorrow, in the meantime, I'll be trying to send a description of the formula as it now stands to:
eaglesaquarium
Bubbelzz
Far_King
OldMan47
NickAU
It may take a while though.
Before I go, however, I think I should restate the warning to beginners at this time, which has been well illustrated by the examples above.
WARNING to beginners! Fish/ water ratio is only one of the many things to consider before purchasing a fish!
Ph, hardness, temperature, aggressiveness, feeding behavior, filter efficiency, and avoiding putting predators with potential prey should also be considered!
Also, as mentioned, this formula is only a beta, meaning any calculations made with it are not yet reliable, and will probably never be as good as expert advice!
 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 

[Jeremy180]

Edit: I've just realized that in my previous reply, I mis-stated the green terrors as jack dempsey.

It doesn't really matter though, as green terrors are even more territorial than dempseys...
Edit2: Maybe this formula should be disregarded for highly aggro species, like many of the rift lake cichlids, for example.......
 
 

It might sound like a good idea to come up with a more precise formula for beginners. This will make it easier for them to establish their new tanks properly.
 
However, I have to note that as rainbowbacon said before, formulas will never be better than your intuition and experience. As every tank is different on a lot of factors the formula might become over complicated. Besides, it will be hard to take all factors into account. As not only the general behavior of a fish is important but also factors like whether you have live plants or not. Besides that is the volume of a tank not the only problem. As fish also have other requirements on the dimensions of a tank. If you would express it in liters/gallons it would still barely tell anything about the tank. Is there need for a high/low tank? what about the depth? or the length? A fish that requires 1 liter of water, can be kept in a tank of 10*10*10 in cm. However a tank of 100*10*1 in cm will also contain a liter of water. However would it be reasonable to place a fish in such a tank?
This might sound a bit exaggerated, but it certainly applies to a lot of fish. Active fish for example will need a long tank to be able to swim a lot. Would a high tank with a small surface still be suitable?
 
Having said that, it would still be a good idea to have a simple general formula that can give an indication on how large a tank should be. This will make it for beginners a bit easier to set up their first tank. As experience isn't acquired in one day their intuition is less reliable than that of the more experienced people.
So I'm very curious how your formula looks like.

A long tank is generally considered to be a better supportive environment than an upright tank with the same water volume.
 
Therefore the calculation may need tweaking dependant on tank shape as well as volume.

I was thinking the above concerns could be addressed by having a separate minimum tank size and max height recommendation.
Maybe no less than 5 times a fish's adult length for less active species, and no less than 6 for more active ones?
And a front-to back depth of no less than 1.5 times the adult length for less active fish, and twice the adult length for faster ones?
Also, regarding tall tanks, recommending to not keep fish in tanks more than 50% as tall as the length of the tank sounds like a good guideline to me. 
 

If you are going to use size, at least consider using body depth in it. An angel with a body length of say 1 1/2 inches is quite a large fish while a swordtail with the same body length is just a juvenile. The angel will require considerably more water per fish than the sword. The angel will likely have a body depth of 1 1/2 inches while the sword will be closer to 1/3 inch. I have no idea what factor to assign to body depth but it is obviously something to consider when stocking a tank.

I whole-heartedly agree, a 6-inch weather loach and a 6-inch angelfish simply cannot be treated equally in terms of bio-load.
Indeed, the current formula uses a fisbase's bayesian length-weight ratio to a degree, although I'm still working on a way to more accurately incorporate it.
To do this, I will need the actual lengths and weights in grams of as many different fish as possible, or as a next best thing, the weight in grams as determined by bayesian length-weight ratio for as many different species, based on those individual species specifically.
Here is my sample data for angelfish:

(btw, an I correct in assuming that this study lists the angelfish in total length, that is, including tailfin?)
Additionally, I think angelfish, scats, and discus should be considered special cases in terms of minimum tank size, needing at least 18 inches in tank depth, in addition to the other aforementioned factors.
 
 

Going by the inch per gallon my Betta tank is voe fully overstocked.
 
 
1 Betta.
2 Mystery snaills.
12 Kuhli Loaches ( there could be more the only way to tell would be to tear the tank down )
60 plus Red Cherry shrimp
And god only knows how many Malaysian Trumpet Snails.
 
All happily living in a heavily planted including floating plants  2 foot 70 liter tank with a 2 tray canister filter, I sometimes get 5 Nitrates reading if I don't change water for 7 days. I never see a reading for ammonia or nitrite.

1 betta: 2.15 gallons
12 khuli Loaches (adult): actually, the current formula gives poor results IMO for enlongated and eel-like fish...
Assuming P.cuneovigrata (2 inch adult length): 12 gallons
Assuming P.malyana (3 inch adult length: 23.5 gallons
Assuming P. khuli (4 inch adult length): 36 gallons
I haven't figured out a reliable way to estimate invertebrate bioloads yet, so these are uncertain.
60 cherry shrimp: 4 gallons? (15 per gallon?)
2 Mystery snails: 4 gallons? (2 per gallon 2 Gallons per snail?)
MTS (rough guess): 50-100 per gallon?
 

You are right NickAU. The whole idea of the inch per gallon "rule" was to help keep newbies from overstocking. It was never meant to be guidance for someone with a little experience who could actually judge the biological load of a tank. In your 20 +/- gallon tank I am thinking you are fully stocked with little room to spare if a power outage comes along though.

Indeed, one should also account for a dead fish that cannot be located, a child putting food in the tank that goes unnoticed, Overfeeding, and other beginners mistakes.
Some example stocking recommendations that I have used to help me fine tune the formula so far include:
6 angelfish in a 90 gallon = full tank
2 oscars in a 125 gallon = full tank
5 clown loaches in a 180 gallon = full tank
Tfh recommendation: 1-2 neon tetras per gallon (to compromise, I'm shooting for about .75 gallons per neon)
 
Edit: that's all I can do for now, have to leave again.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Edit: I've just realized that in my previous reply, I mis-stated the green terrors as jack dempsey.

It doesn't really matter though, as green terrors are even more territorial than dempseys...
Edit2: Maybe this formula should be disregarded for highly aggro species, like many of the rift lake cichlids, for example.......

 
I applaud your pluck.
 
 
it is a noble endeavor, but as your reply to my 'case studies' illustrate, there are many more concerns.  

 

[Jeremy180]

I think people are misunderstanding the goal of this formula.
This is not intended to create a magical calculator that tells you everything you need to know when stocking a tank, that is practically impossible.
What I am aiming for is a formula that will determine maximum stocking rates of compatible not overly aggressive fish, in a tank with 50% weekly water changes without causing stunting, ammonia spikes, or tank instability.
Basically a formula to determine when a tank has reached it's safe bioload limit whilst giving a margin of error for beginners, while leaving other factors to other research tools.

 

[NickAu]

 
6 angelfish in a 90 gallon = full tank

That would be a problem when they pair up IMO.
 

 
5 clown loaches in a 180 gallon = full tank

I think 100 gallons for 5 Clowns is fine.

 

[Jeremy180]

Mostly just posting to let everyone know that I haven't abandoned this thread, it's just that I am going through a severe personal tradgedy that has left me very limited in both time and willpower I can devote to this forum in general.
And also to NickAU:
I am of th opinion that the angelfish scenario is one of those borderline cases, to define the formulas limits, so what I'm really looking for is:
"Does it work more often than not?" behaviorally with less "community freindly" species (like I said numerous times this formula is really only meant to judge bioload alone.)
As to the clown loaches:
Albeit slow growers, these regularly max out 12 inches in aquaria, with exceptionally large individuals in the wild reaching 18 inches, and fishbase giving a max recorded weight of 480 grams, whilst the highest weight I have seen for angelfish anywhere is 52 grams, hence the generous tank dimensions for clown loaches.
I might consider going from about 36 to 30 gallons per clown loach, but I do not think 20 gallons each is enough for a fish that could potentially weigh nearly half a kilo (over two poiunds) is generous enough, IMHO, especially for a beginner, but I could be wrong here.

 

[Far_King]

Jeremy, I'm sorry to hear that there's things going on in your life that aren't good.

This thread and all of us will still be here, there is no rush.  Get through what ever you need to get through, focus on this if you need to, it can be helpful to get your head into something else at times.
 
All the best.

 

[Jeremy180]

Jeremy, I'm sorry to hear that there's things going on in your life that aren't good.
This thread and all of us will still be here, there is no rush.  Get through what ever you need to get through, focus on this if you need to, it can be helpful to get your head into something else at times.
 
All the best.

That's actually what I've been trying to do, but recently, this hasn't been enough, Hence I may be here less frequently.