Fish Store Lady = Stupid

[LukeFishwalker]

Ok, so, I need some help. My wife and I decided to become Aquarists last weekend. Neither of us know what we are doing so we went to Petsmart and asked for some help. We knew there was more to just buying a tank, adding some water and introducing fish so we relied on the "19 year old Fish Expert" to help us out. Big Mistake. She told us to set up the tank (i'll describe my set-up later), wait 24 hours and then come back to buy the fish. We bought the fish, brought 'em home, floated the bags for 20 minutes and eureka we are aquarists. I stumbled upon this forum while trying to research about tank maintenance and after reading a majority of the posts realized my fish are in danger since my tank never properly cycled.

I have a 28 gallon tank (beveled front) with a "hang over the side" filter that came with it. We used all kinds of chemicals to treat our water before we put it in. De-chlorinator, Ph lowerer, bacteria suppliment, water clarifier, aquarium salt. I've been using test strips to test the PH and we have a submersible Ammonia detector. The PH is slightly over 7 and the ammonia has been fine but I'm worried about my fish. I've read a lot and think I have a pretty good idea about cycling but I want to get the real "experts" opinions on how to make this processes as comfortable for my fish as possible.

Right now these are the fish we have:
3 gouramis
5 mollies
5 guppies

Which is about the maximum for my tank, right?

So what do you guys suggest?

I would assume frequent water changes to get the ammonia out and keep the bacteria in (since the majority of bacteria lives in the filter)? Anything else? I have a vaccum that i can use when changing the water - so that should help too, right?

I'm feeling like an irresposible parent right now so any help would be appreciated. Let me know if I didnt give you enough info.

Also - for future reference, if the bacteria live in the filter, what is the proper way to change a filter so as not to get rid of all the bacteria and end up with this same problem?

 

[dixiedawn]

Welcome to the forum..

First off, it's not too late to take the fish back, and do a fishless cycle.
Do you have a liquid Test kit, like the API Master kit?

Yes bacteria lives in the filter, but never replace it until it's literally falling apart! If there's gunk in it, rinse it in the tanks water not tap water

 

[dixiedawn]

Also, mollies and guppies are live bearers, you might have babies coming out of your ears if they're not all one sex lol

 

[puffin3]

Howdy, I'm a complete novice myself. You've come to the right place for 'expert' advice. I'd also suggest you return the fish or find someone with a cycled tank who would let you 'board' your fish until your tank is cycled. Is there another pet store in your area?
For the size of your tank I'd think you could have a few more fish in it. JMO

 

[chishnfips]

hi mate, yeah you are pretty much doing the right thing, water changes every other day should help keep the amonia to a minimum, also try getting somthing to supplement the filter like bacterlife or stress zyme, they will help boost your biological filtration.

Only thing is I would not use any aquarium salts, no need for them at all, and they dont do any good in my opinion, try and use as little chemicals as possible certainly steer well clear of these ph up/down thingys, they are just for short term and no use for long term ph stability. You can change your ph over a course of days and weeks using things such as bog wood and peat filter bags to lower it and tuffa rock/limestone, coral sand etc to increase it, they act as a contual buffer in your tank.

When it comes to cleaning out your filter rinse out the pads in the tank water you have just taken out as it will not kill of the bacteria colony that you have cultured in the filter. If you use tap water to clean the filter the chloramines and what not will put you back to square one and kill of the beneficial bacteria.

As for your stocking if you go by the inch gallon rule you are probably at the limit although that rule is not gospel by any means, so as long as you have really good filtration you may be able to add one or two more bottom feeding fish like corys or a bn pleco. They will also help clean up any uneaten food.

 

[-germ-]

Where do you live luke?
You could try adding some mature media from someone elses tank, there is a pinned topic somewhere on this forum with a list of willing media donators.
You've basically got into fish in the same way i did......
You should cut down the chemicals you are adding to your tank, all you really need is a good dechlor, a decent liquid test kit and a gravel vac.
Why did you add a PH lowerer, have you got hard water in your area?
While the salt is ideal for the poecilids its not ideal for the gourami, in addition gourami and mollies hate each other and i'd predict that your mollies will be harrassing your gourami in no time at all. Then again you might get lucky....
What species of gourami have you got?

 

[rdd1952]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Getting bad advice at the fish store is pretty much the norm whether it be a chain like Petsmart or a true fish store wun by someone who has been in the hobby for 30 years. As mentioned, it is probably not too late to take the fish back. But if you do, make sure you ask what they will do with them as sometimes they destroy them rather than risk putting a diseased fish back in their tanks and infecting their system.

As you mentioned, water changes will keep the ammonia and nitrite low. I will second the suggestion of getting a good liquid master test kit. Test ammonia and nitrite morning and night and do WCs as needed to keep the ammonia and nitrite below .25ppm. Don't worry about the pH. The actual reading isn't very important. The main thing is that it's stable.

You will really have to stay on top of the testing as you have an extremely large number of fish for a cycling tank. Usually, 3 or 4 is the max you want to cycle. Feed lightly no more than once every other day. Less food means less waste and ammonia.

As mentioned, only change the filter pack when it is too tattered to function. And even then, move the media in it (get rid of the carbon and get some ceramic type media as the carbon has to be changed too often) worn out filter into the new filter pack. That way, you will still me keeping most of the bacteria.

And lastly, you need to develop a plan pretty quickly for fry. With 10 livebearers, you will have a lot of fry soon unless they are all males. Female livebearers will have fry every 28 days. And females can store sperm so they can continue to have fry for 3 to 6 months after being in a tank with a male (that is why the fish stores keep male and female livebearers in seperate tanks).

Edit: I agree that adding salt isn't necessary. Mollies like a little salt but it isn't a must. The only time I would suggest it is if you start getting high nitrite readings as I think salt will help neutralize the nitrite and make it less toxic. Hopefully someone else can verify that.

 

[LukeFishwalker]

Where do you live luke?
You could try adding some mature media from someone elses tank, there is a pinned topic somewhere on this forum with a list of willing media donators.
You've basically got into fish in the same way i did......
You should cut down the chemicals you are adding to your tank, all you really need is a good dechlor, a decent liquid test kit and a gravel vac.
Why did you add a PH lowerer, have you got hard water in your area?
While the salt is ideal for the poecilidsits not ideal for the gourami, in addition gourami and mollies hate each other and i'd predict that your mollies will be harrassing your gourami in no time at all. Then again you might get lucky....
What species of gourami have you got?

Florida - USA

I have the gravel vac and the dechlorinator is just one a picked up off the shelf. I used a PH lowerer cause when I checked the PH of the water it was high. I havent check the PH of my tap but I'm going to buy a liquid tester today and get all that figure out. If my tap PH ends up being high - how can I reduce it without a ton of chemicals?

I *think* I have 2 dwarf gouramis and 1 blue gourami. Everyone seems to be getting along fine. Grouramies stay towards the back and hide and the mollies and guppies all chill out up front. We had an red swordtail that was bugging the crap out of my poor gouramis so he was promptly returned. I've been up and running for a week so I'm past the deadline to return any fish now and I wouldnt want them to get killed anyway.

If I'm never supposd to change the filter - why does the package say replace every 4 - 6 weeks? When the time to replace it does come, how do you transfer bacteria?

 

[dixiedawn]

replace every 4 -6 weeks is a ploy for you to go back and buy buy buy!

when your old filter gets too ratted to function put a new filter in with the old or take part of the old filter and leave it in with the new one so that the bacteria can grow.

Might not hurt to start a little first aid kit for your fish as well, like white spot meds or velvet meds..never know when you might get hit with the stuff!

 

[-germ-]

If I'm never supposd to change the filter - why does the package say replace every 4 - 6 weeks? When the time to replace it does come, how do you transfer bacteria?

The filter pad ill rarely need replacing, they advise you to do this so they can take more of your cash. It'll last ages, when it gets really bad swap half for new media, leave it for a week then replace the older half....

Gourami can be a fairly difficult fish to keep without the correct research/conditions. Dwarves have a lot of inherent problems with illnesses although obviously there are exceptions to this rule. You could do with sexing the dwarfs if possible.
How high was the tanks PH? A high PH is suitable for the poecilids but not ideal for your gourami, plus i think (?) adding salt would have bumped your PH up a bit....

 

[rdd1952]

If I'm never supposd to change the filter - why does the package say replace every 4 - 6 weeks? When the time to replace it does come, how do you transfer bacteria?

It says to change them that often so they can sell you more filter packs. When you change the pack, simply pour the media from the old filter pack into the new one. The vast majority of the bacteria is actually on the media and not the actual pack so you won't lose much bacteria if you do that.

As for the pH, what is the actual reading from the tap and in the tank? When you say that it was high, what was the reading. High is 8+. Anything in the 6s or 7s is fine for most fish. The actual reading isn't nearly as important as the fact that it is stable. That is why the adjusters are so dangerous. They keep it in a constant up and down swing.

 

[LukeFishwalker]

If I'm never supposd to change the filter - why does the package say replace every 4 - 6 weeks? When the time to replace it does come, how do you transfer bacteria?

The filter pad ill rarely need replacing, they advise you to do this so they can take more of your cash. It'll last ages, when it gets really bad swap half for new media, leave it for a week then replace the older half....

Gourami can be a fairly difficult fish to keep without the correct research/conditions. Dwarves have a lot of inherent problems with illnesses although obviously there are exceptions to this rule. You could do with sexing the dwarfs if possible.
How high was the tanks PH? A high PH is suitable for the poecilids but not ideal for your gourami, plus i think (?) adding salt would have bumped your PH up a bit....

I dont remember - 8ish I think. I was using a all in one test strip. Dunk it then compare the different colors type thing. I'm going to go a liquid tester today and test it tonight along with my tap water and all and let you guys know what I find out.

I REALLY appreciate you guys helping out and my fish do as well

 

[-germ-]

No worries, the vast majority of people on this forum have been there at some point themselves.

I would consider removing the gouramis though, i know you'll be hesitant to do this

I've been up and running for a week so I'm past the deadline to return any fish now and I wouldnt want them to get killed anyway.

Like i said i started off the same way and refused to take my labeo chrysophakedion (name changed now) and my Angel fish, just ended up digging myself deeper and eventually had to re-home them.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...184716&st=0
The angels went about a fortnight after the post above.

You could look for someone local to take them off your hands, there won't be any aggression as yet, they'll still be settling in, but if the dwarves are male you'll have trouble between them. Not sure about the 3 spot (blue) with dwarves TBH.....

 

[rdd1952]

If you're using strips, do you have an ammonia test? The strips can be very inaccurate and the 5-in-1 strips don't have ammonia on them at all dispite the fact that it is the most important thing to test in a new tank..

 

[LukeFishwalker]

If you're using strips, do you have an ammonia test? The strips can be very inaccurate and the 5-in-1 strips don't have ammonia on them at all dispite the fact that it is the most important thing to test in a new tank..

I have a submersible ammonia tester that gives a sort of constant measurement. I do have the 5-in-1 strips because that was was recommended but like I said, I'll be getting a liquid test this afternoon.

As for the Gourami situation - is the only reason to remove them because they will fight with the mollies? My wife isnt going to like the idea of getting rid of any of her fish but I think she will be at least a little more open to getting rid of the mollies.

I specifically asked if any of the fish we were getting would fight with each other and she said no. All of the Gouramis are male and I even asked if having too many males would result in fighting. She said they wouldn't and then mentioned they keep all the males together and they dont fight. I wonder how many fish have died as a result of this kind of bad advice.