Fish Profiles On Websites Vary Of Same Fish

[des22]

Hi All

New to the forum and new to the hobby. Before i set up my first proper freshwater aquarium im doing a lot of research, also gives me time to build up my budget. After reading alot from all over the web it seems that water chemistry is key to having a successful aquarium and to keep the occupants happy.

I have been looking for fish profiles on the web and i found that it seems everyone has there own opinion on what the temp, dh and ph should all be; example take the gubby.

Fishlore
badmanstropicalfish
about
fishprofiles

You will notice that in each profile something is different to the other, either ph, gh and or temp.
I just used the gubbby as an example but the same happens with other fish profiles.

I want the water to be just right for the fish so that they will be healthy and live happy lives, and not end up in a torture chamber made of glass. This concerns me that there are varies ideas of what the chemistry should be. Where can i find a good trusting accurate fish profile database?

Does one have to be accurate? How do we know if the fish are ok with the water?

I would like to build up a cumumity tank
with these fish.

Gubby
Swordtail
Platy
Mollies
Oto cat
Clown loach
Neon or Cardinal tetra
Dwarf Gourami

With being a bit of carefull with Gourami and Gubby.

According to this chart they are compatible, now to come to think of it, can i trust the charts on the web?
pecto

Thanks

 

[dnn3]

i'm pretty sure they're compatible just make sure you get a good size tank as clown loaches can get pretty big.

 

[NonstickRon]

Tank size?

 

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Yes, you're often going to see conflicting information on the "proper" conditions that various fish should be kept in. Generally if you keep it towards the mid-range you should be alright. Also, pH range is generally not a factor except for some advanced and more delicate fish. Most of the fish commonly available in petshops can tolerate a wide range of pH.

 

[OldMan47]

The issue is easy to understand Des22. If I set up a tank in my house and have a pH of 7.8, which is what I have, and a temperature of 77F, again what I have and you ask me what conditions my mollies need, what will I tell you? I will tell you that they thrive at 7.8pH, 77F and in hard water. Now do the same with the next 100 people who have good results with mollies and you will get what their tanks are at. If you take all the data and put it together, you will publish a list with a pH and hardness, mine is about 12 degrees, and temperature that says they can go from whatever the typical minimum value is that you found to whatever the maximum typical value that you found. Let's say when you looked at mollies some people kept them with salt in their tanks, then you would have another line on the water requirements that says they tolerate salt up to some value.
Nobody gets to really ask the fish what they like so they start out with the conditions the fish see where they occur naturally, usually quite a range, then they modify it with what seems to work for people who keep the fish. What they end up with are often numbers that are fairly close to each other for a given fish but, as you have discovered, they are not the same.
For fish that are not as commonly kept in home aquariums, the numbers vary a lot more than with the common ones. The sample size of successful keepers means that the data it is based on is too small to be a valid sample. If its a fish that I keep and it's surviving you get a value of pH 7.8. The guy in the next state has water of pH 6.8 and they are doing OK there too. What is the right value that is best for the fish? I'm willing to bet neither one of us has it right and it is some other number entirely. If the guy in the next state and I are the only ones that keep the fish, what conclusions can you draw about ideal pH? My conclusion is that we don't really know.
That is the correct answer for some of the fish that I keep so I do my homework about the water the fish come from and cross my fingers. If I am wildly successful with a particular fish the next guy gets to say that he knows my values worked and his are close enough to be worth trying that fish. If I fail, nobody really knows the right value but we know that something about my water wasn't right. It might have been pH, hardness, temperature or who knows what. In an ideal world, you would only change one of those factors and then maybe you could figure out what went wrong, but usually more than one factor changes. Now if the next guy has good results you can't even say which of the factors that failed me worked for him but you know you have a better chance with his set of parameters than with mine.

 

[Colin_T]

You might find some of the sights have information about the water chemistry from a river with wild fish populations, whereas other sites have info about general tap water chemistry. If you are keeping captive bred fishes, (which most people are) then they will survive in a wide range of conditions. If you are keeping wild caught species then you need to get the water parameters closer to what the fish would have in the wild.
However, even in the wild, rivers & creeks will have different water chemistry throughout the year. In the dry season the PH tends to drop and the hardness increases due to the water evaporating and the higher fish/ animal populations in a smaller water volume.
In the wet season rainfall fills up the creeks & rivers and washes away most of the nutrients and rotting organic matter. This helps to increase the PH and dilute the hardness.
The temperature will also vary widely during the year. In the dry season the water will warm up rapidly. In the wet season the temperature will drop.

As for your selection of fishes I would suggest either keeping platies or swordtails and not both. They will cross breed and male swordtails can be quite obnoxious and continually harass the female and male platies. Platies will also be better tank mates for guppies and mollies.

Otocinclus catfish should be fine but don't put them in the tank until it has been established for a couple of months. They are sensitive to poor water quality and if the tank has an ammonia or nitrite spike it could kill them. The clown loaches are the same but will need a reasonable sized tank (as mentioned by others). Small loaches (1-2inches) will be fine in a 3ft tank for a couple of years but eventually they will need to be moved into a bigger tank.

Neon & cardinal tetras are generally all captive bred and should be fine with the livebearers (mollies, guppies, platies) but try to keep the PH of the water from going too alkaline. If you can keep the PH about 7.2-7.6 it should be fine for all the fishes. If your tap water has a PH of 8.2 or something higher then find something else that likes the higher PH.

Most dwarf gouramis are a waste of time these days. They suffer from TB and a virus that knocks them about pretty badly. If you can find healthy fish then they make nice inhabitants, but unfortunately most of the stock is rubbish and not worth having. There are plenty of other small gouramis and bettas they do much better but they generally come from soft acid water. If you keep mollies & guppies in soft acid water they tend to have problems.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

The issue is easy to understand Des22. If I set up a tank in my house and have a pH of 7.8, which is what I have, and a temperature of 77F, again what I have and you ask me what conditions my mollies need, what will I tell you? I will tell you that they thrive at 7.8pH, 77F and in hard water. Now do the same with the next 100 people who have good results with mollies and you will get what their tanks are at. If you take all the data and put it together, you will publish a list with a pH and hardness, mine is about 12 degrees, and temperature that says they can go from whatever the typical minimum value is that you found to whatever the maximum typical value that you found. Let's say when you looked at mollies some people kept them with salt in their tanks, then you would have another line on the water requirements that says they tolerate salt up to some value.
Nobody gets to really ask the fish what they like so they start out with the conditions the fish see where they occur naturally, usually quite a range, then they modify it with what seems to work for people who keep the fish. What they end up with are often numbers that are fairly close to each other for a given fish but, as you have discovered, they are not the same.
For fish that are not as commonly kept in home aquariums, the numbers vary a lot more than with the common ones. The sample size of successful keepers means that the data it is based on is too small to be a valid sample. If its a fish that I keep and it's surviving you get a value of pH 7.8. The guy in the next state has water of pH 6.8 and they are doing OK there too. What is the right value that is best for the fish? I'm willing to bet neither one of us has it right and it is some other number entirely. If the guy in the next state and I are the only ones that keep the fish, what conclusions can you draw about ideal pH? My conclusion is that we don't really know.
That is the correct answer for some of the fish that I keep so I do my homework about the water the fish come from and cross my fingers. If I am wildly successful with a particular fish the next guy gets to say that he knows my values worked and his are close enough to be worth trying that fish. If I fail, nobody really knows the right value but we know that something about my water wasn't right. It might have been pH, hardness, temperature or who knows what. In an ideal world, you would only change one of those factors and then maybe you could figure out what went wrong, but usually more than one factor changes. Now if the next guy has good results you can't even say which of the factors that failed me worked for him but you know you have a better chance with his set of parameters than with mine.

nice explanation OldMan

I'd just say, yes water chemistry is key, but you are focusing on the wrong aspect of water chemistry here, for the vast majority of community fish the exact pH, KH, GH and temp is not all that important.

For all fish what is important is the ammonia, nitrite and to a lesser extent nitrate content of the water. To prepare your water and ensure you have the right conditions in these levels you should cycle the tank before adding fish. Have a read of the links in my sig 'whats cycling' and 'fishless cycling' and that will explain more to you.

If you can get that aspect of water chemistry right then the pH and temp is less important, so long as you are within a 'normal' range they'll be fine.

If you can run some water tests on your tap water and post them up here we'll let you know if they will be fine for the fish you want or what you should do.

 

[des22]

Thank you to everyone that has replied and for good answers.

I see, so basically the Ph, GH and temp are more rough guidelines? If you keep the fish species in that range of the general profile they should be alright? Will they be comfortable?

What are normally the signs of un easiness or signs that they not happy with the water?

I understand that there should be no ammonia and no nitrite and that nitrate should be in an low range kept in check with regular water changes with conditioned water. And that one should cycle their tank before adding fish. Aswell as adding the most hardy fish first and adding them slowly very few fish at a time.

The size of the tank im hoping to set up is +- 205 L, 45 UK gallon, 53 US liquid gallon tank.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

good! are you planning on cycling fishlessly using ammonia?

yeah for most fish they are rough guidelines, there are some fish which are quite sensitive to pH but most of them aren't, as I say if you let us know what your tap water levels are and what fish you decide on getting we can highlight any issues with sensitive fish.

I'm afraid your tank won't be big enough for clown loaches though, they can reach 24" althoug 12-16 is a more common size. They do need to be in a tank more like 6'x2'x2'

 

[Colin_T]

What are normally the signs of un easiness or signs that they not happy with the water?

stressed fish will usually fade and not show their normal colour. They might become skittish and nervous and dash about madly when you go near the tank. They often hide among the plants or in the back corner of the tank.

 

[The-Wolf]

I see you haven't quoted fishbase (Swedish institute of ichthyology).
they only use the ph/gh etc if it is recorded in the place the fish was first
discovered, so IMHO would be a more accurate guide as to the fish's needs
http/www.fishbase.org

 

[des22]

Thanks i will check fishbase out.

And i will watch out for those signs.

 

[vinylman]

It's worth remembering that with most fish a constant PH is most important. Any Freshwater fish you see in your LFS will be acclimatised to water that won't be a million miles away from your own supply. Acclimatise any fish you buy slowly in a bucket and you shouldn't have any problems. I often read that Cardinal Tetras are 'tricky' fish to keep, preferring an acidic PH. My LFS acclimatises them to a PH of 7. My PH at home is 7.2; all I did was acclimatise them slowly and I've never had any problems with these 'tricky' fish. Just avoid the extremes of PH and you (and, more importantly, your fish) will be fine.

 

[LauraFrog]

The other thing I would say is that if you choose mollies, buy smaller ones. There are several species of fish sold as mollies. The smallest of the domestic mollies, Poecilia sphenops, will survive in just about any tank as long as it is bigger than 10 gallons, the water quality is good, and they are kept warm. The larger ones, the sailfin mollies Poecilia latipinna and Poecilia velifera are trickier fish to keep. They really need salt in their water, which cories and especially the loaches will not like at all. I'm trying to save two that have been kept in a pure FW tank - they are very sick and possibly beyond help.

 

[des22]

Thanks to everyone that replyed