Firefish

[superman]

sorry to tell you this but live rock & live sand are really the best filter for sw tanks.

[snapback]857366[/snapback]​

This is a broad generalization that definitely does not hold water. Live sand and live rock are definitely the cheapest forms of filtration for saltwater, but in no way the "best". In order to even be in the running as the "best" form of filtration I believe that the first criteria would be the exportation of solids, which live rock and live sand do not do. I do agree that they do serve a purpose (mostly just areas where anaerobic bacteria carry out the denitrification process) but they only serve as part of a filtration equation. On such a small tank as a 10 gallon however, you can get away with doing water changes (50% would be best in my opinon) once a week and you could get away with not using a protein skimmer.

 

[superman]

I guess I'll also through my two cents in about the other questions asked. I would go with a small grain aragonite based sand (sugar sized, no silica) Using a finer sized grain sand will inhibit the sinking of stuff like fish poop, and uneaten food down into the substrate, instead it will be much more likely to sit on top where it can be exported through filtration or water changes. Crushed coral gravel has a lot of empty spaces between the large pieces of gravel where organics can sit and rot, not a good thing. Your firefish will be much more likely to come out into the open where it can be viewed if it has plenty of hiding places near by, so whatever you decide to do make sure you have plenty of nooks and crannys for the firefish to chose from. Go pick out a nive piece of live rock, you should be able to get a nice piece for about $30 that may have some cool live stuff on it (make sure it doesn't have stuff like aptasia, or nuisance algaes like bubble algae, cyano and the like) Have fun with this.

 

[ScoutCarcer]

Do firefish get along with seahorses?

 

[superman]

Do firefish get along with seahorses?

[snapback]857954[/snapback]​

They would probably "get along" as far as temperment, but the firefish would out compete teh seahorses for food, and would generally freak out the seahorses at feeding time. So definitely a NO on the seahorses.

 

[veen]

sorry to tell you this but live rock & live sand are really the best filter for sw tanks.

[snapback]857366[/snapback]​

This is a broad generalization that definitely does not hold water. Live sand and live rock are definitely the cheapest forms of filtration for saltwater, but in no way the "best". In order to even be in the running as the "best" form of filtration I believe that the first criteria would be the exportation of solids, which live rock and live sand do not do. I do agree that they do serve a purpose (mostly just areas where anaerobic bacteria carry out the denitrification process) but they only serve as part of a filtration equation. On such a small tank as a 10 gallon however, you can get away with doing water changes (50% would be best in my opinon) once a week and you could get away with not using a protein skimmer.

[snapback]857509[/snapback]​

you're probably in the minority in this then. but regardless, if he wants to get live rock and sand it is a good idea. if he does not, then he would need some sort of filtration, not necessarily a skimmer though. i don't have a skimmer on my 12 and have no problems.

 

[fraservet]

I agree that live rock and live sand are not always the best option for sw tanks, particularly with large fish only tanks where there is a lot of waste produced.

"live sand and live rock are definately the cheapest forms of filtration for saltwater"

- you have got to be kidding!

 

[superman]

I guess I can see where you're coming from on the "you've got to be kidding "

It depends on the size tank I guess, live rock and sand in many of our smaller tanks is actually cheaper than throwing a real nice skimmer on them, but that also depends on how much you are paying for that skimmer (skimmer prices are all over the place) or if you are doing a DIY.

I don't want to be arguementative, but would like to discuss this, so veen do not take this wrong at all please, but I would like to have a good discussion about this.

How am I in them minority with the belief that live rock and sand is NOT the best filtration? If it was the best filtration then public aquariums around the world would be ditching their MASSIVE skimmers and fluidized bed filters and simply adding as much live rock as they could into HUGE sumps. The fact of the matter is that live rock and sand do not export excess nutrients, but instead only hold some beneficial bacteria that help in the the stable nitrogen cycle. So simply put, anything that has surface area can be used as a substitute for live rock and sand. The key to filtration is to export the excess nutrients effectively, whether this be with skimmers, massive water changes, etc.

I am not arguing against sand and live rock, they serve vital roles in the asthetic sense, and do have a small part in filtration, but not a vital one.

 

[veen]

I guess I can see where you're coming from on the "you've got to be kidding "

It depends on the size tank I guess, live rock and sand in many of our smaller tanks is actually cheaper than throwing a real nice skimmer on them, but that also depends on how much you are paying for that skimmer (skimmer prices are all over the place) or if you are doing a DIY.

I don't want to be arguementative, but would like to discuss this, so veen do not take this wrong at all please, but I would like to have a good discussion about this.

How am I in them minority with the belief that live rock and sand is NOT the best filtration? If it was the best filtration then public aquariums around the world would be ditching their MASSIVE skimmers and fluidized bed filters and simply adding as much live rock as they could into HUGE sumps. The fact of the matter is that live rock and sand do not export excess nutrients, but instead only hold some beneficial bacteria that help in the the stable nitrogen cycle. So simply put, anything that has surface area can be used as a substitute for live rock and sand. The key to filtration is to export the excess nutrients effectively, whether this be with skimmers, massive water changes, etc.

I am not arguing against sand and live rock, they serve vital roles in the asthetic sense, and do have a small part in filtration, but not a vital one.

[snapback]860993[/snapback]​

i see what you are saying, but honestly, of all the many, many sw aquarists that i know (many of whom are highly knowledgeable fs owners, managers, and people who have been in the hobby for many years), very few agree that filtration methods other than lr/ls are the best. i think the original poster asked about the "best" method (but i could be wrong, i'd have to check the post again). to me best means least amount of time spent, most effective, etc. of course anyone can have a fish only or reef tank w/ no lr/ls, but is that best? perhaps "best" is too subjective a word. if these forms are not used as filtration then one will usually have to do some serious maintenance like major water changes, etc. far more often than in systems using only lr/ls and skimming.

that said, people should use the method that works best for them, be it lr/ls, mechanical, chemical, etc. filtration. in my case on my 12g i use lr/ls with a hob fuge containing chaeto, lr rubble and a small amount of ls. this system has worked exceptionally well and i have had no major problems nor do i have to do extensive water changes.

 

[superman]

i see what you are saying, but honestly, of all the many, many sw aquarists that i know (many of whom are highly knowledgeable fs owners, managers, and people who have been in the hobby for many years), very few agree that filtration methods other than lr/ls are the best. i think the original poster asked about the "best" method (but i could be wrong, i'd have to check the post again). to me best means least amount of time spent, most effective, etc. of course anyone can have a fish only or reef tank w/ no lr/ls, but is that best? perhaps "best" is too subjective a word. if these forms are not used as filtration then one will usually have to do some serious maintenance like major water changes, etc. far more often than in systems using only lr/ls and skimming.

that said, people should use the method that works best for them, be it lr/ls, mechanical, chemical, etc. filtration. in my case on my 12g i use lr/ls with a hob fuge containing chaeto, lr rubble and a small amount of ls. this system has worked exceptionally well and i have had no major problems nor do i have to do extensive water changes.

I guess that if you include least amount of time spent, then yes, zero amount of time spent is quite hard to beat isn't it I guess what I was really looking at was a stand alone type of filtration that does the best job. Coupling a fuge (a way of exporting the nutrients) with your live rock/live sand filtration is a great way to utilize the two forms of filtration, though now the definition of the word filtration can seem to become a little cloudy, but nevermind that. I will agree with you on this, when it comes to inexpensive (in cost of maintenance, time involved, and cost over time) Live rock/live sand is the "best". But I would have to qualify this by saying that it is best to couple this form of filtration with other forms as you have, like refugiums, algae scrubbers, aptaisia scrubbers, the list goes on.
This brings up a good point, it is a great idea to use a couple if not more ways of filtration together, this will contribute to the stability of the system, especially in the case of the partial or complete failure of one or more of the filtration methods, just like we have seen in DSB crashes, live rock leeching, and macro algae sexual problems.

 

[Ed4567]

Another point worth making explicitly is the need to match the filtration choices to the corals that you are planning to keep.

A suitable setup for keeping soft corals (moderate flow, comparitivly high DOC concentration, long lighting period etc.) will in many cases be unsuitable for a SPS focused tank which would probably do better by following Bomber on RC's example (huge amounts of flow, ozone, barebottom tank, massive skimmer, etc.).

 

[superman]

Another point worth making explicitly is the need to match the filtration choices to the corals that you are planning to keep.

A suitable setup for keeping soft corals (moderate flow, comparitivly high DOC concentration, long lighting period etc.) will in many cases be unsuitable for a SPS focused tank which would probably do better by following Bomber on RC's example (huge amounts of flow, ozone, barebottom tank, massive skimmer, etc.).

[snapback]861552[/snapback]​

Great point Ed, the better we match the filtration to our live stock the better the chances the livestock will thrive. Good point Ed.