Filters,heaters,air and other fish myths.

[Lunar Jetman]

It was directed at him. As I said a bit frustrated and it was referring to another post where he broke down what I said into like 5 different quotes correcting each thing. And my point wasn't that it diluted the water at all in nature. It was actually the opposite. It collects all types of bad stuff from animal waist to rotting material. None of that is present in a clean water change. That was my point is there are no truly clean water changes in nature. Aside from a natural spring or something like that.

Ok, lets accept that there are no truly clean water changes in nature, but you must accept that there are water changes which this guy says he doesn't do.

But then keeping fish in a tank isn't how they are in nature so as fishkeepers, we already accept that and have then maintain the fish as best we can.

His main tank described at the beginning has a "huge fish load" but no filtration. He doesn't have a ton of plants for the fish load so I'd be concerned about the build up of ammonia, nitrates and nitrites without daily water changes which he says he doesn't do.

Again, the only way i'd be happy with this setup would be for him to confirm his water parameters to prove his fish are ok.

Also, Colin did point out that Rainbowfish and Cardinal Tetra's prefer opposite ends of the ph spectrum so long term they won't necessarily be happy.

Some fish keepers fall into the trap of assuming that because their fish look ok "now", they're ok. Put a fish that prefers a low ph of 6.5-7 in a tank with a ph of 8 won't necessarily kill it the moment it hits the water but it could end up shortening its life somewhat as its not happy long term, so saying your fish are ok just because they're swimming around eating doesn't mean they actually are.

If we take your video, the guy claims the tank has been set up for 3-4/2-3 years but in particular, those Rainbowfish aren't that old. I'd be surprised if they were more than a year old based on my experiences. So that makes me wonder how healthy this tank actually is.

For reference, I have a dwarf Pleco that is at least 13 years old. I realise not all fish live that long but if your tank is healthy and the balance is right, your fish will be healthy and live longer.

His main aim seems to be to "not give his money to capitalists" rather than maintain the best conditions for his fish. Look its easy to criticise but I'm only doing so from my opinion. I've had over 30 years keeping fish so think I've got a good grounding at least. He may have some valid points, I'd just like to see more evidence based arguements from him rather than, 'everything looks, feels, seems fine so it must be.'

 

[Lunar Jetman]

Maybe consider this. Without doing any research just off the top.of my head I know that large mouth bass across the United States range in average size. This is largely contributed to Temp and a couple other factors. They are the same specie's but slight differences I'm habitat makes pretty big difference in size. Why would that be any different in an aquarium? I know that a common way to try and figure health was size. But I don't believe bass in Idaho are any less healthy then the huge bass you can catch in say Texas. Slightly different temp probably a few other factors. Sand you have two fish same specie's both healthy living wild but much different average size. Just food for thought. I don't know I count him having smaller fish as unhealthy. I don't believe keeping a fish slightly warmer or slightly colder then the norm is going to creat some frankinfish. To me these are old ways of thinking. I used to think all this same stuff. But time and experience mixed with a little common sense (lucky because I only possess a little) and I have changed my way of thinking.

I think the comments relating to Rainbowfish size are more that he claims the tank is 3-4 and then 2-3 years old so if those fish had been in there for that long they should have grown to a bigger size. The fact that they're of the size they're are suggests they're no more than a year so what has been in there since he set it up? A well maintained tank should be able to keep its inhabitants alive for 2-3 or even 3-4 years so it just makes me think that his tanks aren't as good as they could be.

Plus, with the mixture of fish that are potentially incompatible (Cardinals v Rainbows due to water conditions they need) suggests either he doesn't realise different fish need different conditions or he did realise by doesn't care..

 

[AKfish]

And I respect that and would suggest that's how everyone approach a new and especially unorthodox idea. I'm not sure if I have actually seen him do any peram testing on video. I can see if I could find one at some point. He does give off the relaxed no care vibe. Look at his white board behind him in his video. The guy has I believe over 100 tanks and stuff going on outside. He is a little hippie-ish lol if I may. But doesn't mean the concept is bogus. As you said with that bio load those fish in theory would only last days with no filter. People do crazy things but if he filled that tank just to do the video that would be crazy. Or if he does this in all his tanks and he has tons. Seems risky if your not trying to be spending and this and that. Seems like you're success rate would be really low on fry. Just seems like he would be doing a lot of work for a lazy guy to have a low success rate lol. Oh I mentioned his white board I think. All kinds of inspiration sayings. I think he does actually do a lot. But water changes on all those tanks is no joke either. I believe he is using a lot of RO water. If I'm not mistaken he bought a big RO machine that he hard lined into his water supply. I mean to each their own and I don't discredit your exp one bit. But I think there are more then one way to skin a healthy cat lol. I know I do things a little different then others. But it works fine for me and my fish. Have had a flowerhorn that lived shoot 6-8 years. Don't know their average life span but hey are not a natural fish. So if I'm remembering correct they are prone to dien pretty young some times.

 

[AKfish]

I

Ok, lets accept that there are no truly clean water changes in nature, but you must accept that there are water changes which this guy says he doesn't do.

But then keeping fish in a tank isn't how they are in nature so as fishkeepers, we already accept that and have then maintain the fish as best we can.

His main tank described at the beginning has a "huge fish load" but no filtration. He doesn't have a ton of plants for the fish load so I'd be concerned about the build up of ammonia, nitrates and nitrites without daily water changes which he says he doesn't do.

Again, the only way i'd be happy with this setup would be for him to confirm his water parameters to prove his fish are ok.

Also, Colin did point out that Rainbowfish and Cardinal Tetra's prefer opposite ends of the ph spectrum so long term they won't necessarily be happy.

Some fish keepers fall into the trap of assuming that because their fish look ok "now", they're ok. Put a fish that prefers a low ph of 6.5-7 in a tank with a ph of 8 won't necessarily kill it the moment it hits the water but it could end up shortening its life somewhat as its not happy long term, so saying your fish are ok just because they're swimming around eating doesn't mean they actually are.

If we take your video, the guy claims the tank has been set up for 3-4/2-3 years but in particular, those Rainbowfish aren't that old. I'd be surprised if they were more than a year old based on my experiences. So that makes me wonder how healthy this tank actually is.

For reference, I have a dwarf Pleco that is at least 13 years old. I realise not all fish live that long but if your tank is healthy and the balance is right, your fish will be healthy and live longer.

His main aim seems to be to "not give his money to capitalists" rather than maintain the best conditions for his fish. Look its easy to criticise but I'm only doing so from my opinion. I've had over 30 years keeping fish so think I've got a good grounding at least. He may have some valid points, I'd just like to see more evidence based arguements from him rather than, 'everything looks, feels, seems fine so it must be.'

I think the comments relating to Rainbowfish size are more that he claims the tank is 3-4 and then 2-3 years old so if those fish had been in there for that long they should have grown to a bigger size. The fact that they're of the size they're are suggests they're no more than a year so what has been in there since he set it up? A well maintained tank should be able to keep its inhabitants alive for 2-3 or even 3-4 years so it just makes me think that his tanks aren't as good as they could be.

Plus, with the mixture of fish that are potentially incompatible (Cardinals v Rainbows due to water conditions they need) suggests either he doesn't realise different fish need different conditions or he did realise by doesn't care..

That I do understand. And I don't know much about rainbow fish. But I don't doubt what you say. Does make me want to go back and listen closer to his shrimp talks. See if anything doesn't mix well with what I believe I know about them lol. I don't know him personally. But he isn't the only place I have seen the filter less, heater less, airless tanks. I know the guys at flip aquatics have a big one and the aquarium co-op owner does too. I want to put one together and try it myself.

 

[Lunar Jetman]

IThat I do understand. And I don't know much about rainbow fish. But I don't doubt what you say. Does make me want to go back and listen closer to his shrimp talks. See if anything doesn't mix well with what I believe I know about them lol. I don't know him personally. But he isn't the only place I have seen the filter less, heater less, airless tanks. I know the guys at flip aquatics have a big one and the aquarium co-op owner does too. I want to put one together and try it myself.

if you do try this it would be interesting to see your results, water parameters etc. That way you could prove or disprove this guys set up.

 

[Colin_T]

Ok to be fair to the OP and the guy in the video, I watched the video completely from start to finish. I also watched another one of his videos about doing water changes on his quarantine tanks (see link below). The guy in his other video I watched, states he does not check ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, and he uses reverse osmosis (R/O) water on all his tanks. If he is not checking his water quality for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, how does he know the levels aren't building up and causing damage to the fish.

He does do water changes and even recommends doing daily water changes on his quarantine tanks. That's a contradiction, don't do them on display tanks but do them on quarantine tanks. His quarantine tanks had less fish per gallon than his display tank does.

He uses R/O water on his livebearers (platies and guppies), which in my opinion is not the best for those types of fish because they originate in hard alkaline water and are bred in hard or brackish water in Asia. He was having problems with his platies and I would say part of the issue for that was the soft water.

He uses a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter to check his water. These are not useful devices when it comes to identifying general hardness, pH or water quality that affects fish.

He was also having problems with discus and said they had whitespot. As a general rule, discus rarely get whitespot because they are kept in warm water (temperature around 30C/ 86F), and the whitespot parasites can't survive at that temperature. His discus did appear to have some white spots on them, but they were in bad shape and were covered in excess mucous, which did not appear to be related to whitespot and looked more like poor water quality.

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But during spring when nature flushes the toilet. Your almost guaranteed to catch beaver fever.

LOL, most teenage guys have that.
sorry I have a dirty mind

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Regarding bass growing to different sizes in different locations, the most likely cause is fishing by recreational anglers. More anglers in one area will remove more large fish. Fish keep growing throughout their lives, although they slow down as they get older, and if there's lots of little fish but no big fish around, it's overfishing by people.

Back in the 1970s we use to go fishing for mulloway at Canning Bridge. We would regularly catch fish that were 4 foot long, and sometimes people would catch a 6 footer. These days you are lucky to catch a mulloway, and they are usually less than 2 foot long. It is a direct result of over fishing and people taking all the big fish.

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People do crazy things but if he filled that tank just to do the video that would be crazy.

People do things like that tho, especially if it makes them more popular on tv or YouTube. Think about the news you see on television. When was the last time you saw a nice boring story (Granny May sitting on the porch knitting something)? Probably not for a along time. Now Granny May being bashed in her own home by a group of teenagers who broke in and took her life savings, that's a news story that will get people's attention.

Most news stories are all about exciting or gory things to get your attention and make you go eew, ahh, or that bastard should be jailed. People do things to attract attention and doing things that are different, (like overcrowding a tank with all sorts of fish), gets people's attention.

The tank in question, the one that has been set up for a couple of years, not only has rainbows, cardinal tetras and ruby barbs, it has Aphyosemion killifish and a female dwarf gourami. Neither species which will do well in a tank with lots of water movement, no floating plants, and 20 adult rainbowfish to compete with at feeding time.

On the subject of water movement, the powerhead that is in that tank has filter media in it and is acting as a biological filter, so my guess is he will have high levels of nitrates in the water.

Fish kept in tanks with lots of constant water movement do not fair well. They spend all their energy swimming into the current and burn out within a short period of time.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I'm uncertain if I should jump in here. I'm no expert, but have been in the hobby seriously for 50+ years. I followed LRB (Lucas) on YouTube for a long time. I don't buy in to his no water change mantra with the excuse that he has too many tanks to worry about water changes. Most of his tanks simply don't have enough fast growing plants to handle much nitrogenous waste. I have never seen him do or display nitrate test results. I expect that most of his tanks are quite high in nitrates.
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@AKfish - I think you are a bit confused about rain in nature. The organic waste in the forest pretty readily breaks down into humus and the rain is filtered through soil, sand, clay and rock....where it picks up minerals. The mountain streams are relatively pure and nowhere near as polluted as you seem to think. Lucas thinks his dirty water tanks are okay because streams and rivers have dirty water. But muddy water is not the same as polluted tank water - not even close.
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The Walstad method taught us that a heavily planted tank with fast growing plants and a very light bio-load could be okay with few, if any, water changes and no mechanical filtration. However, this is so far away from the average hobbyist's tank with modest plants and much higher bio-load. And then again, it's my understanding that Dianna Walstad came around to recognizing the benefit of routine partial water changes.
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So do fish survive and breed in aquariums with high nitrates? Yes they do...for a time. However, science tells us that the likelihood for disease is greater and that fish life spans are shorter.
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'The solution to pollution is dilution' and the benefit of routine partial water changes are huge.

 

[seangee]

@All and moderators.
Fascinating as this thread may be to some the conversation is perhaps best continued in the scientific section or a chat.
The reality of this forum is that there are a number of experienced fish keepers and a large number of newcomers to the hobby - which of course is a good thing. The majority of posts from newcomers is of a "help my fish is sick or behaving strangely" nature.
The cause of the vast majority of these issues is poor water quality or inappropriate conditions and IMHO this forum does a great job of educating members and new fishkeepers.
Yes I too have successfully kept "natural" tanks, but I don't believe we should be promoting this as the way forward in the general section and encouraging new members that the best way to care for fish is to throw them in a tank and leave them to it.

 

[AKfish]

Ok. Well never recommended no water changes to anyone. Never suggested anyone do a natural tank. Simply wanted to open up a discussion on a topic that interested me. Obviously that was a bad call as it seems to have ruffled a few feathers. As far as the rain/melting bringing clean water I guess we agreed to disagree. I know for fact melting snow brings animal waist into the rivers and definitely pollutes it with bad stuff. But again so far on this forum someone always seem to have a different answers that's the right one. I wish all you guys the best in your tunnel vision way of keeping fish. Can't even discuss something here. Just get told what's right and wrong, crazy.
Feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Do you really believe that fish all over the world. Same specie's in different locations differ in average size do to fishing?? That's a real comment?? YOU CANNOT JUDGE FISH HEALTH ON SIZE. also got some reason you think rain water is filtered by sand and dirt and all you said. What are you talking about? Sure it gets filtered if is drains through the materials just like a fish filter. It does not get filtered at all running over the surface of the forest floor. Makes absolutely no sense to even suggest it does. Y'all can have this forum. No ready to have to keep explaining sill stuff that's common sense. I have kids for that.

 

[AbbeysDad]

@AKfish - where does the water you drink come from?

 

[AKfish]

Come on bro. This is the stuff I'm not trying to keep doing. Obviously water underground is filtered through the sediment. We aren't talking drinking water we are talking rivers and lakes man. I mean come on. If your belief is all rivers and lakes are fed my some underground water source spread across the length of the river. Because being spread across the length of the river would be the only way it could provide fresh new water to effect fish down stream. I mean I'm grasping at straws just trying to even figure out what you must think. It's very simple really.

 

[AKfish]

Dude rain water falls basically as R/O. So by your question I assume you understand it then gets filtered through the earth to underground waterways. Yes your familiar with the process. So why would R/O water need to be filtered? Because the moment a drop of rain comes into contact with a surface on the forest floor it is instantly contaminated. It's the only reason we don't drink out of puddles yet drink from underground sources. It's really that simple to understand. When we go around drinking fresh rain off the ground I'll believe rain washes fresh water into waterways. But the fact is you would drink from a stream well before a mud puddle. What should that tell you as far as common sense. So silly.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Ever heard of a reservoir? Many municipalities draw their water from lakes and reservoirs (uhm that are fed by stream and rivers). I'm thinking just maybe you suffer from the same tunnel vision you've accused others of.
And unless you're deep in the wilderness, rain water is tainted by air pollution and is nothing like reverse osmosis or distilled water...but nice try.
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So why were you so impressed by LRB's video. Are you looking to reduce or minimize routine partial water changes?
Just for kicks, check out anoxic biocenocis filtration baskets.

 

[Byron]

Ok. Well never recommended no water changes to anyone. Never suggested anyone do a natural tank. Simply wanted to open up a discussion on a topic that interested me. Obviously that was a bad call as it seems to have ruffled a few feathers. As far as the rain/melting bringing clean water I guess we agreed to disagree. I know for fact melting snow brings animal waist into the rivers and definitely pollutes it with bad stuff. But again so far on this forum someone always seem to have a different answers that's the right one. I wish all you guys the best in your tunnel vision way of keeping fish. Can't even discuss something here. Just get told what's right and wrong, crazy.
Feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Do you really believe that fish all over the world. Same specie's in different locations differ in average size do to fishing?? That's a real comment?? YOU CANNOT JUDGE FISH HEALTH ON SIZE. also got some reason you think rain water is filtered by sand and dirt and all you said. What are you talking about? Sure it gets filtered if is drains through the materials just like a fish filter. It does not get filtered at all running over the surface of the forest floor. Makes absolutely no sense to even suggest it does. Y'all can have this forum. No ready to have to keep explaining sill stuff that's common sense. I have kids for that.

I will respectfully suggest you do a refresher course in biological science because you do not have a very accurate understanding of natural ecosystems and water changes in the broad sense.

When you advise members to ignore proven science and instead follow ideas from videos on YouTube that are contrary to the scientific evidence you should not be surprised that members who do have some understanding of the basics of the science will correct things; if we don't do this, the forum becomes pointless as a source of help and advice.

 

[AKfish]

Ok y'all are blindly right. I never recommended anyone do anything. I'll repeat that because it seems most are pretty much missing that. Didn't tell anyone to do anything. I stated my opinion a couple times as to what I may do on a couple subjects. But as I always try to say it's my opinion and I always suggest doing your own research. I simply wanted to have a discussion about it. Most simply want to say it's wrong there is only one way to raise healthy fish. That's cool give he cookie cutter answers. I have seen people give completely wrong advice as to max size of fish and a few other things. Things that aren't debatable just flat wrong. So you can have fun regurgitating the same tired information. Fulfilling the need to educate the new guys and whatever you personally get out of that. Have no idea what the resivour comment was even supposed to mean. If you think cities are drinking unfiltered, untreated river water from resivours you're truly an idiot. Have fun, y'all can delete my thread or whatever. It's obvious talking about anything besides the basics isnt possible.